Defending the Name

Yes to the first question. It is like a prisoner on parole breaking their bail bond conditions. Paul says we are prisoners of Christ and must stay in him and not stray. If we stray from Christ we are rejecting sanctification. Yes to the second question. If we refuse to be rehabilitated/sanctified, then we don't come into the fullness of Christ. God wants us moulded into the personage of his only begotten Son, for that is the will of the Father.

This statement I 100% agree with. It also emphaises that a real and tangible one to one relationship with Christ Jesus is the sole requirement that saves. Religiocity in this regard teaches otherwise and this is why the many who say Lord Lord will not make the cut and fail to impress the Lord with their Christology doctrine. Salvation is about having a relationship with the Lord and not merely knowing him from a head space doctrinal point of view. I gave you a thumbs up because you deserved it. Truth is Truth, thankyou for the words of truth.

Christology as far as Jesus is concerned is as he defined it..... True and False Disciples 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ It seems that defining Christ in the way that people thought from a doctrinal point of view, from the head space of man, has also categorised those very same people as the many who prophesied to know him all too well, yet failed to make his cut in the heavenly numbers. Shame!

Salvation consists of water and of fire (John 3:5). Though many are called to Christ, yet only a few are chosen, for not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those that do the will of the Father. The will of God is solely connected to how God dispenses his Grace and scripture states that the law came by Moses, but truth and Grace came by Jesus Christ. The dispensation of God is tied to the SEED OF PROMISE Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ becomes our rest day, that is God's Sabbath. How we were saved from, is from the point of reference where we were kicked out of God's rest day, in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve fell from God's Grace, taking with them the whole human family. Yet within the same event, God promised that a SEED would come to crush the head of the serpent and to usher in God's rest day all over gain. This means that the breach in the garden would be once again repaired, as evidenced by the chronology of scriptural dispensations that led to the SEED Christ Jesus. Salvation is defined........ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11) With reference to the above versus, there are many who have been called to Christ, yet only a few are saved. Hence the saying..... 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:22-23) God sees in the secret compartment of the heart and when people are called to Christ, many like the Pharisees choose to delve into religiocity and by doing so focus on a religious institution as if the institution through itself is dispensing God's grace, when in fact the institution becomes the worldly temple, modelled after the church of Jesus time, that was headed by a Patriarchal figure and that instituted a heavy yoke that it policed. Jesus would say to the samiritan women at the well, this model would be made obsolete, that no longer will people look towards the temple in Jerusalem, or the mountain where Moses received the commandments. Jesus would say one must be born again of the Spirit of God and that the Kingdom of God doesn't come by observation, rather the Kingdom of God is within you. The temple moved from the Old Testament church model with its patriarchal figure, to the New Testament church model that has the temple residing in us, whereby Jesus becomes our temple and our one and only Patrairchal figure in the Holy of Holies, who intercedes on our behaves. So the temple being moved, the church model being changed and the patriarchal high priest figure being changed, points to the will of the Father tied to his dispensation which solely is tied to Jesus Christ, our rest day. That is why scripture states, that with the new covenant, the laws will be written in our hearts and that no longer will they teach one another to know thy God, for all from the smallest to the greatest will know the Lord. Jesus said ask and it shall be answered, knock and the door will be opened. It is obvious that not everyone that is called to Christ will live according to the dispensations of God, rather they will cling onto a religious model, that is modelled after the first beast of John's revelation, that gave life to his image by establishing itself in its footsteps. The first religious beast Babylon the Great where our Lord was crucified, was the Old Testament church that Jesus charged with the blood of Abel right through to the blood of Zechariah, who was the last Old Testament prophet. The second lamb/Christ like beast that comes to encompass the world is made up of many daughters who take after the harlot, who is the original Judaic religious system that fell in 70AD. It is clear that religiosity is another model based on the persecuting authority of the first beast. If you look at history many of these religious institutions have done crimes in the name of religion, believing that they were doing God's will. Hence the statement, have we not preached in your name, cast out demons in your name is a tell tell sign of a wrong fellowship. It is clear that John 3:5 presents the formulae for salvation, that us we must be baptised by water for our justification, but salvation isn't only about being justified in Christ, for it must entail the final leg of fighting the good fight of faith and by individually finishing our race. This is where Jesus says be faithful even unto death and I will give you a crown of righteousness. So salvation requires justification and sanctification. Sanctification is a life long rehabilitation process that God the Holy Ghost oversees throughout an individual's born again faithful life, right up until their very deaths, where they finish their race and keep the faith. The fire is the purging of our old self, where we slowly are being made Holy/complete in Christ and according to all his eight beatitudes and come to the fullness of Christ. No longer will they tell one another to know thy God, comes down to each and every born again believer being instrinsically motivated to own their faith and to become life long learners of the faith through a real and tangible relationship with Jesus Christ as their wonderful counsellor. Paul says we must become prisoners of Christ. So the Old model of church was based on transmission teaching and was policed and legislated by statutes that extrinsically motivated people to toe the line or else. In the new church, there no longer is that policing authority and it requires individuals to instrinsically be motivated to own their faith and to come to Christ as willing prisoners and not under obligation or peer group pressure. Many are called to Christ by religiosity and their Old Testament modelled institutions, yet only a few will work it out and come to Christ individually and be saved. Humans like their comfort zones and many who cling to each other and their religious institutions are practicing religiosity and not doing the Father's will. Sure we need a community of believers, but that community of believers doesn't need to be modelled on the first beast Babylon the great, the harlot that declared itself as the only path to salvation and enforced its rule of religious law as it pleased, under its Pontiv/patriarchal figure. Since those who embrace a patriarchal or Pontic figure in place of Christ and revert to the Old Testament temple centred worship and practices, they are seeking to please God through obedience to a religious system, along with its patriarch/pontiv that had been made obsolete. These people believe it or not fall under the old covenant and have not part in dispensation of Grace through Christ Jesus, for that is why Jesus rejects them, because they are not doing the will of the Father. To be saved you must come individually to Christ your one and only Patrairchal King and establish a one to one relationship that binds you to him only. As Jesus would say you in me and I in you. You must come to Christ with a broken snd contrite heart that places you in his hands and his hand shall only.

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; (Hebrews 4:8) Jesus Christ is the Sabbath rest day, the very dispensation of God, the SEED OF PROMISE, spoken of in..... And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Genesis 3:14) Now when we come to the Matthews 14 x 14 x 14 generations, we can discern that he is revealing God's dispensation to all of humanity. In Matthew 18:21 Jesus tells Peter to forgive 70 x 7 which equals to 490. This equals the exact 14 generations spoken of Matthew 1:17 from Babylonian exile to the coming of Messiah prophesied in Daniel's 70 week prophesy. To sum it up, the dispensation of God was chronological from the garden, right until he delivered on that promise on the tree that Paul spoke whereby Jesus was crucified. The first tree Adam was told not to eat, the tree at Calvary is where God says eat plenty of. This is the only basis of God's dispensation. It was never ever about a relgious institution or people's calling themselves Israelites. The dispensation as Paul would say to thy SEED, in singular and this SEED of promise Jesus Christ is our sabbath and dispensation.

Mathew summed up the dispensations in chronology..... 17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah. (Matthew 1:17) 14 consists of 7 + 7, so from Abraham to David you have 7 + 7, from David to the exile is another 7 + 7 and finally from the exile to the Messiah the final 7 + 7. You have 6 lots of 7s and when Messiah comes on the scene he comes on the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's 70 week prophesy. So you have each 7 representing a 7 year cycle, right up to the 50th year Jubilee, that is 7 x 7 = 49. what is astonishing is that all scriptures were pointing to the Messiah fulfilling what the Law and the Prophets said all along. Jesus therefore becomes the SEED, the only covenant that allows an individual to enter God's rest day the Sabbath. This means that Jesus is the Sabbath, the very rest day of God's dispensation, that he promised he would do in ththe Garden in regards to the SEED crushing the head of the serpant and the serpent striking the heel of the SEED. SO AS FAR AS DISPENSATIONS ARE CONCERNED, THEY MUST CHRONOLIGICALLY LEAD TO THE SEED OF PROMISE JESUS CHRIST. Therefore the promise is not to Ekklessia but to each and every individual who comes to Christ by their own free will, being intrinsically motivated to own their faith and be the temple where the Lord of the Sabbath Christ Jesus resides. As Jesus said you in me and I in you. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. (Romans 8:9) In this regard the dispensation is the SEED of promise Christ Jesus, who is our Sabbath. The temple from the 14 to 14 to 14 generations, that is 7 7 7 7 7 7 moved to the 7 lots of 7, 49 - the jubilee in us, were are the temple of the Holy Ghost. As Jesus said no longer will you look to the temple in Jerusalem or the mountain where Moses received the Ten Commandments, for the Kingdom of God will not come by observation, for the Kingdom of God is in YOU. So this day all prophesies appointed Jesus Christ as our rest day sabbath dispensation. This means that we are the symbol of the two witnesses (the Law and the Prophets), who preach the gospel in all the world, towards the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week prophesy. Jesus ministered for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, before he was cutoff, meaning crucified. The symbol of the two witnesses who are every born again by the Spirit of Christ faithful, preach in the remaining 3.5 days of Daniel's 70th week. That is why Jesus said ......... For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. (Revelation 11:9) Do you see that the 3.5 days is the ministry of the church, the born again believers who have entered God'/ rest day.

Immediate judgement follows for each and every individual. This is where all eyes will see him and all mouths will give an answer for the works done in the body. This means that when a person dies they are presented before the judgement seat of Christ and are judged according to their faithfulness to the Son of God. Ignorance is not a valid plead in this heavenly courtroom.

The second time without sin applies to the believers in Christ. The context is addressing the inmediate audience who were his disciples who had seen Jesus the 1st time whilst they were in the sinful earthly Adamic body. The second time without sin, refers to their incorruptible state of being, that is post resurrection. So the disciples see him the second time to be reunited with him in his Father's house.

That is right only a remnant is saved. Those countless disbelieving Jews who lived and died from the 1st century at the time of Christ until their restoration as the 11th hour workmen have all been lost. The remnant scripture speaks of are those who come in as the 11th hour workmen before the bridegroom makes his glorious entry.

Israel as a race under Christ and not as a political nation will be saved, in the same way all races under Christ have been saved by the precious blood of Christ. This means what it means that all who want to come to the Father need to carry their crosses and not their political flags. I believe when Jesus said the first shall be last and last shall be first, is alluding to Israel as a race of people, who were supposed to be the first workmen in God's vineyard, finally come as the final workmen on the 11th hour before the bridegrooms glorious entry. Israel as a race must say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord and they must join the ranks of the Great Commission to preach the gospel to their own race and as the 11th hour workmen, before the bridegroom comes to his sheep. There is no salvation for any race who do not commit to the Great Commission.

You have raised some very valid points. In another post you made a pinion point that there appears to be a list stating the usual way of passing, which is death, with the exception of Enoch. Another point you made is to highlight a context and purpose of this list, where purpose needs to be tied to context of Jewish culture. In Jewish culture it was customery to announce at the request of family or clan members the names of their departed originating clan/tribal leaders, of which each and every name mentioned is highly suggestive of this. Enoch along all the other names were clan/tribal leaders whereby their offsprings who carried their name requested mention of their name in a funeral service. So the purpose of the list is within the context of a funeral service to mention the departed clan/tribal leaders. In Genesis 5 there would not have been many generations and so every living clan member wanted to be reminded from which tribe/clan they came from in honour of that individual. Since the context is a Jewish funeral list, then also Enoch amongst the list is also counted as to have died, being no more as the old testament writer puts it. You are correct in saying that "it is difficult to extract a lot of information, from a couple of sentences, about one man, without reading into it, things that may not have been intended." In this regard we must read into it to decipher the context and purpose of the list according to the cultural Jewish context. What is the purpose of this list, is it from a historical context or a customery funeral context at the request of the living clan members.

I understand what you are trying to say. The author of the old testament gives a list of all the departed tribal/clan members in a list that was customary spoken out at a funeral service. The context is that the same outcome has come upon all those who are being called out in the list. The word translate in modern language is transfer. In Enoch's case and within the context of the departed funeral list, Enoch was transfered in state from what he was to being no more amongst the living. To be transferred without seeing or experiencing the pains of death as a causation does not infer being physically transported in the present earthly state. We refer to Elijah and Philip who were physically transported from one place to another and both Elijah crops up when he delivers a letter to a new King who was after he was transported and Philip was seen in a different place after baptising the African Eunuch. There is no evidence when considering both the old and new testament writings to infer that Enoch was physically transported in his earthly body somewhere else.

The context of culture is important in interpreting biblical text. Think Jewish culture.

Enoch didn't see death coming because it was unexpected without experiencing or tasting its pains.

Yes quite rightly observed. However Enoch had been pardoned from the pain of death. Usually when a person was killed or died of painfull disease it is described and labelled as death. God taking Enoch away implies a peaceful exist from this life where Enoch would be no more according to the old testament author. Death according to the Hebrews writer is the Act or process of dying and not so much the outcome. If a person dies in their sleep after the previous day they're was nothing wrong with them medically then God took that person away because there is no explanation to cause of death.

Maybe you are right but the old testament author didn't mention that he didn't die. The author gives a chronology of years leading up to him being no more because God took him away. The Hebrews author states that he would not see death. Look at the word seeing and what that implies. Seeing doesn't mean tasting for all men are destined to die once. The Hebrews author with reference to the word seeing is implying a death that is not tasted, meaning not felt. For Enoch death came suddenly and he didn't feel it. Seeing death requires tasting meaning experiencing the bitterness of death. It seems Enoch was pardoned from the pains of slow death, especially an elderly person who has lived so long. 21When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.22After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. (Genesis 5:22-24)

"Enoch was not; for God took him" Enoch passed away like any human being, that is he died and this is the way the author put it as God taking him away.

Yes brother you are right, spiritual death is separation from the risen Lord. It means that after we put to rest the first ADAM we have a home, that is a permanent dwelling place prepared for us in the heavenly realm with our Lord. Either people will migrate from this earthly life to put on immortality or they will go off naked into the abyss, that is outer darkness of hell. In that respect true believers walk as the dead amongst the living because they have already considered themselves dead to the carnal ways of this world.

Thank you for all of your inputs

Amen yes, yes and yes in CHRIST Jesus

DefendingtheName, Together they meet, at the same time, at the last trumpet (7th), not the eighth or 800th trumpet, because there are only 7 trumpets, and the wrath of God starts once the world has received the Mark of the Beast, and the end time saints persecuted. There are no trumpets before this. The trumpets are the signs of the end, The dead are raised first, then those alive quickened, and together they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is the order of the majority in Christ. However, the first fruits are separate from these two groups, the dead in Christ, and those alive in Christ at his coming, that's why they are called the first fruits. They are not the majority, but the minority. and they are not Jewish blood, but spiritual Jews, Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. The 144K are alive when they are sealed, just before the wrath starts. They are not taken up anywhere just yet but will be here during the wrath, protected, as in the days of the passover. I think they will keep their heads. Notice is says they follow the lamb, wheresoever he goes, and not followed, as in already happened. Because they are alive when the sealing takes place, and not dead. The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified. Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. They are not defiled with women (religion) and they are virgins (not broken in by other gods) These will be the wise virgins who had oil in their lamps and were ready, so to speak, and Jesus gave so many clues in his parables, saying he comes as a thief in the night, so be ready, for we do not know what hour the thief comes, well this is the hour, the sealing, for we all know the signs of his coming, it's in the scriputres, You know the order, after the beast comes, and the false prophet emerges, and the mark is issued, and the saints killed, and then the 7 trumpets and vials in detail, and the false prophet building his temple, and the 2 witnesses preaching in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years, and the gathering of the armies and the FP temple declared finished, and the 2 witnesses killed, and after three 1/2 days resurrected, and the world will see, then Christ will come, on the 7th trumpet, that day in the same hour. See no mystery, but no one knows exactly when the sealing of the 144,000 will take place? And one thing for sure it's before the wrath of God with the 7 angels, and could even be before the FP shows his face, anytime soon. Thank you Sister, You stated: The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified. My reply: The seal in context to the 144,000 is alluding to the figure of speech, to convey that The Lord has already banked them, in his heavenly barn. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" The mark cannot have any influence on them, because they are not in the earthly realm. Scripture declares after the sealing of these 144,000, the following happens: Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These who were slain for the word of God, rather than for the testimony of the lamb, are the old covenant saints who had previously been departed and waiting for the Messiah's first advent to raise them up from their graves after the fifth seal was opened, to signal the commencement of the long awaited resurrection of the dead. These were given white robes which are the symbol of the Holy Ones, that is Holy Angels that accompany Christ as his white cloud. Therefore these old covenant Saints were asleep in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) and when they were saying to The Lord, how long are you going to wait before judging the inhabitants of earth? They were raised and then were told to be patient until also their new covenant brothers and sisters would also be born and then die as they died, in order to also join them in the wedding supper of the lamb. The white garments are the garments of the guests to the wedding supper of the lamb, so they are post resurrection garments. Now after the broad summary of the seals in chapter 6, scripture now goes into further detail to who these saints who were slain for the WORD OF GOD are. Revelation 7:2-4 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. This Holy Angel that ascends from the EAST having the SEAL of the living God, is The Lord himself. The Lord SEALS the group called the SERVANTS OF OUR GOD. This group are called servants where as Jesus told his new covenant believers I no longer call you servants but now call all you friends. So this particular group called the SERVANTS OF OUR GOD are the 144,000 old covenant Jews of all the tribes of the children of Israel. This event is a past event and not future because The Lord has already sealed THROUGH the resurrection of the dead these first fruits who are the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. First fruits means first fruits of the harvest of God, meaning they are the first to be redeemed / reaped from the harvest from amongst men. They sing the sing of Moses that no man living on earth can sing, because they have gone through the experience of death and onto resurrection to now be the guests of the wedding supper of the lamb, wearing the white angelic robes. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ (Forerunner), THE FIRST-FRUITS; then, when he comes, those (New Covenant) who belong to him. Christ is not the fruit of the harvest because the harvest is his, he created all things (John 1:1-4). Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. The 144,000 are the FIRST-fruits to be redeemed FROM the earth and so they are those who were raised first and therefore they were reaped from the harvest of God as the first fruits. The reaping of the great harvest of God commenced when the first fruits were reaped meaning SEALED, through the resurrection of the dead, where they were presented before The Lord with white wedding robes of angels the second time without sin (Hebrews 9:28). Please read on: Revelation 14:4-6 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Notice after the sealing of the 144,000 through the resurrection of the dead, the angel in sequence after the sealing declares that now the everlasting gospel should be preached to the rest of humanity comprising of the many gentile nations of the world. As Jesus declared salvation did come to the Jews (house of Judah) first as these old covenant saints who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) were raised in fulfilment of prophesy (Ezekiel 37:11-14, Daniel 12:1-4, Matthew 27:52-53). The resurrection of the dead cannot be a one time future event in the making, because The Lord before the close of the odd covenant age, needed to fulfil his promise to the house of Judah and this he did in full. Therefore the time of the reaping of the harvest commenced when the 144,000 were raised after Christ's resurrection, who is the forerunner to the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23). Then we have a picture in heaven with also another group joining these 144,000 through the first resurrection: Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Notice that in Rev. 14:6 the everlasting gospel was preached onto the gentile nations at large AFTER the SEALING of the first fruits (144,000) of the harvest and this second group are the many gentile nations who have also been SEALED and entered in to the wedding supper of the lamb through the first resurrection, where they now also wear the white robes of the wedding. What is depicted in the verse that follows are these jubilant two groups both Old Covenant redeemed and the New Covenant redeemed who are said to sing the SONG OF MOSES (144,000h and the SONG OF THE LAMB (Gentile nations) (Rev. 15:3) and are said to: Revelation 7:14-15 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. It is this particular second group comprising of the many gentile nations of the world who are said to have washed their robes and made them white by the blood of the lamb. The 144,000 who are the Old Covenant SERVANTS OF OUR GOD are not said to have washed their robes and made them white by the blood of the lamb, because they were those old covenant souls waiting in Abraham's Bosom for the first coming of Messiah to raise them up, in which he did just that. We know that these two groups are now portrayed as the many heavenly hosts, the white cloud that Christ sits with. These two groups form the great divided mountain congregation of the redeemed, mentioned in Zechariah where the Northern half of the mountain are the former sea (Old covenant) and the Southern half of the mountain are the latter sea (New covenant): Zechariah 14:4 (Heavenly New Jerusalem) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and HALF of the MOUNTAIN shall remove toward the NORTH, and HALF of it toward the SOUTH. Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from New Jerusalem; half of them toward the FORMER sea, (Old Covenant, 144,000) and half of them toward the HINDER sea: (New Covenant) in summer and in winter shall it be.

Iamlamad, Read: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. You stated: "1 Thes. 4 tells us of a ONE TIME gathering of the Church. It happens, not at the END of the world, but at the end of the church age, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. It is CLEARLY a gathering of both the dead and living at the same time." Firstly the dead and the living are not gathered at the same time, as it states those living unto the coming of The Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep, meaning dead. This means the dead rise before those who still remain alive. What is the time frame from the dead to those who still remain alive, if the Lord's coming is a ONE TIME EVENT? It simply doesn't make sense. The only way that it will make sense is that if there is a TIME separation between the dead who rise first to those very end day elect who remain on a God forsaken earth to be finally translated into their heavenly bodies. The Lord's gathering encompasses a time interval from the first fruits, right up to the remaining elect who are alive. This is what scripture calls the time of the reaping of the great harvest of God. Therefore this time interval encompasses from the first fruits (144,000 old covenant Jews), Saint Stephan as the first martyr of the new covenant, going right down to the very last remaining elect. Friend you are behind the eighth ball, for the trumpet has been sounding for almost 2000 years and counting. This will continue to happen until the brilliant coming of Christ where he will sound the seventh trumpet and declare time no longer. The church is caught up with him in heaven as his angelic bride and not according to an earthly millennium reign, because where Christ is, his angelic white cloud also accompanies him. The Lord descending with the shout of the archangel Michael is as the seventh angel sounding his trumpet. This is the finale that is relevant to the last remaining elect and not those who had previously died and been raised in their own time when their earthly body died. This is not a one instance later event where the living join their previously dead brother and sisters, who had been raised before them. There is no contextual merit for a time instant event, you can not separate the raising of the dead and the living by an infinitesimal time instance. Please rethink and reflect upon your statement. You stated: "Note that there is only two verses between the classic rapture verse (17) and the mention of the Day of the Lord. WHY would Paul tie these two events so closely together?" Good question and the reason behind this is that Saint Paul is giving a summary of the time frame encompassing the reaping of the great harvest from the previous new covenant believers who had previously dead, right up to those still remaining alive before the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ. This is a summary and not a one time event for both the dead and the living. You are putting your own assumption that it is a one timed instance event. From the language itself Saint Paul is providing two categories for the dead and for the living and these are tied to different events that separate the last remaining end of harvest elect from those who have previously been reaped during the entire time period of the reaping of the great harvest of God. The great harvest of God is not a one time or instant event, it is when Christ opened the fifth seal and initiated the long awaited resurrection of the dead when he arose from the dead, almost 2000 years ago. Remember Saint Paul comforted the immediate recipients of his letters who were alive in his time; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, meaning we shall not stay dead, but will be immediately in a twinkling of an eye be transformed in the heavenly body. Saint Paul isn't talking about physical death here, but spiritual death after the earthly body dissolves. Saint Paul looked beyond the fleshly body, because when he mentions that the faithful will not all sleep, is already alluding that they have already passed from the earthly life, therefore sleeping in context after the earthly body dissolves, is when the person is in a sleep state and separated from the conscious presence of God. In this case Saint Paul is saying they will immediately be raised without delay and be in the conscious presence of Christ. You based your whole notion of the dead and the living on the following statement: "Paul now compares two groups of people and what will happen to each at this SUDDEN EVENT of the rapture. Those living in darkness, not born again, get "sudden destruction," and NONE will escape it. Why? It will be a world wide earthquake - the very same earthquake we read of at the 6th seal." Please understand that the dead and living are all redeemed by The Lord, meaning they are saved and have nothing to do with the wicked as you tried to associate the verse with, when describing the two groups. The dead and the living are all saved, Saint Paul is talking about the faithful and not the condemned living in darkness. Your taking things out of context. You can not impose what you are stating on two versus of scripture alone. You need to have a solid back bone to scriptural interpretation and can not pick and choose your own story, it is not a choose your own adventure book and you are not the narrator.

Seals 1-4 are the four horses of the apocalypse of the old covenant age and the the fifth seal is Christ opening it and raising his first fruits of the harvest who are the 144,000 old covenant saints who were waiting in their grave for the messiah. The 6th and 7th are towards the end of the 70th week when the little horn comes.

I agree.

LAMAD this is where we disagree. Who is the women mentioned in: Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The scarlet coloured beast is the colours of all nations, which is the modern world we have come to live in and the colourful flags that each country represents. Mystery Babylon has influence over all of them, so she must be the second beast who is lamb like, meaning Christian in appearance who influences the kings of the multicoloured flagged (scarlet) nations of the world. Therefore the second beast who is mystery Babylon must be a religious / political system, which is an offshoot of the original pharisaical Babylon religious system that fell in 70AD, as declared in Rev. 14:8. Babylon is the first beast that came out of the sea of peoples that is the cradle of civilisation in the Middle Eastern region and mystery Babylon the great, is the second beast that originated from earth, which implies that it expanded into other continents of the world. Mystery Babylon must be a Judaic Christian enterprise which gives life to the first beast and starts off where the first beast had left of from, when he received the head wound back in 70AD. After all the second beast carries the first beast's original mark and forces the whole discovered world to worship the first beast that had the head sound in 70 AD. Remember that mystery Babylon the great is said to be in the wilderness and the expanse of the discovered world, where as Babylon is the situated where the sea of people originated from as far as Genesis creation is concerned. The distinction is made by the following verse: Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. The cities of the nations fell, because these cities of all the nations of the discovered continents are the symbol of the scarlet coloured beast. If you look at Babylon the first beast, it falls immediately after the successive three angel messages are declared and happened at the time the everlasting gospel went out into the gentile nations of the world. Revelation 14:6-8 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. These are sequential and successive angel declarations that must be tied in context of the generation that they impacted greatly. Jesus stated this generation shall not pass away until all is fulfilled is to those who lived in the first century leading up to the destruction of Babylon on 70AD. You need to understand that the Babylon mentioned in chapter 14 is the original beast, whereas the mystery Babylon the great mentioned in chapters 11,16,17 and 18 is the second beast. How do you differentiate between the battle of Armageddon and the battle of God and Magog? Revelation chapter 20 is a summary of events from the time of the fall of the first beast Babylon to the time of the fall of the second beast mystery Babylon the great. Look at the chronology of events in the chapter: 1) Revelation 20:1 ​ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (I believe that this Angel is The Lord who has the key to sentence anyone to hell. Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.) 2) Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Beginning of Satan's symbolic thousand years imprisonment.) 3) Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations.) 4) Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The Heavenly Kingdom is established (Daniel 2:44) and the way the people who sit on these thrones with Christ are the souls of the deceased who had died for the witness of Jesus (New Covenant) and for the word of God (Old covenant) who have passed from the earthly life and they have been resurrected into their heavenly bodies . This is the reign of Christ in the heavenly tabernacle in context to the resurrection of the dead, because those that sit on the thrones with Christ have entered in through the first resurrection. So the thousand year reign of Christ is to those who have entered in through the resurrection as they were originally portrayed as those who had been killed in The Lord.) 5) Revelation 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (The context of the thousand year reign is the first resurrection, this therefore rules our any millennium reign of Christ on earth. It clearly describes that the thousand years encompasses the first resurrection.) 6) Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Satan is released towards the end of the first resurrection (the great harvest) that encompasses the heavenly millennium reign.) 7) Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Now Satan can come into the world again as the little horn and deceive the whole world which is mystery Babylon the great to gather them to battle for the last and final time. Remembering the first time when he gave power to the first beast, his beast and prophet enterprise was destroyed in 70AD which led to his imprisonment.) 8) Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Satan as the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka man of sin, now perpetrates a world wide Calvary of the witnesses of Jesus which are symbolised as the camp of the saints and the beloved spiritual city that is of his body. After satan kills martyrs the countless symbolic two witnesses who hold the testimony if Jesus, then God unleashes fire from heaven which signal the judgement vials and woes on the remaining inhabitants of earth.) 9) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Remembering that the first beast and prophet were cast in the lake of fire and satan was imprisoned, when the first beast Babylon fell in 70AD. Thus time around at the end if the symbolic millennium, Satan gets served the same fate as the original first beast by being cast in the lake of fire along with the second beast mystery Babylon the great. Where the beast and the prophet represent a false religion and political system.) 10) Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (At this point there is no more earth or heaven because they have all been dissolved by the judgement vials. At this point The Lord as the seventh angel would have sounded the seventh trumpet and declared time no longer.) 11) Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Everyone has died and the only living Re those who have put on their heavenly spirit bodies in the ark of protection, heavenly New Jerusalem.) The battle of Armageddon is the battle of Gog and Magog. This is the truth in the matter whether people want to accept it or not.