Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Sister]

 

 

 

 

Thank you Sister,

You stated:

The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.


My reply:

The seal in context to the 144,000 is alluding to the figure of speech, to convey that The Lord has already banked them, in his heavenly barn.

 

 

Hi Defending

 

Thankyou for your reply brother.

Let me just point out again, that the book of revelation is revealing to us the end times.  There is a little history in there, but it's to do with the future (end times) and for us, the very near future.

We are living in those end times now.  We are so close.  We will live and witness these prophesies come to life.  Some will live long enough to see Christ return. (two in the field, one taken etc)

You have to realise there have been apostles and disciples of Christ, from the days of Christ, all the way through to the end (now)

No modern day worshiper can add anything to the scriptures that is not already written, all he/she can have is a better understanding of those prophesies, the solids, because we are living in the times now, and can look back at what has been fulfilled.

 

As the Word of God has spread to all populations, the truth has been watered down over the years.

The pure Word of God has been corrupted by men, ie, new bible translations for a start, and the enemy has come into the fold preaching another doctrine, or many dotrines.

The truth is, God has kept his Word pure all along and we can access it.  There is only one translation that has not been corrupted, and spelling errors may of been corrected, and books that don't belong in there removed, but the doctrine remains the same, unchanged.

The fact is God has left us something pure to rely on - his Word.

It was prophesied that "the falling away" will occur in the last days, and this means that the truth has fallen away from men's ears.

If we are living in the last days, and we have fed on the pure Word of God, with a pure hunger for truth,

and have found our way despite all the muddy waters (false doctrines) around us, and relied directly on God's Word to teach us, to fill us with the spirit of truth,

and not relied on religion, or men to do the teaching, not believing and trusting in everything they say is true, but finding the truth for ourselves,

then this is an amazing feat for one living in the last days such as this in Gods eyes.

 

And according to the scriptures, although many are called, only a few are chosen,

then at the end of this era, when wickedness has reached it's peak, and Satan has contaminated everything that has to do with the truth,

and it's so bad that Christ has to come to put an end to it,

then those who do find the full truth are only the 144,000, in these last days. 

Not many when there are so many christians about.

 

Revelation 2:17   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

Hidden Manna - food from heaven.  Truth.  The truth is hidden in this day and age, and trying to find the truth is like trying to find a needle in a haystack - It's a gift, a reward, for dedication and loyalty, and for those weaned off the milk.

The truth is given to us now, not when we are dead.  We are supposed to be witnessess that everything God says is true, and will come true.  We testify before it happens, not after, ....and with perfect knowledge and understanding, not guesswork.

 

John 6:58   This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

Not live forever, then eat of this bread, but eat the bread first, then ye shall live forever.

 

 

So the 144,000 ticked all the right boxes, listened to instruction, fed on the Word of God, and follow the lamb wheresoever he goes and are alive when the sealing takes place, how can I make you see this brother?  Only the spirit of truth can show you from the scriptures,

because the angels are told to hold back the four winds, and not destroy anything until they are sealed, only 144,000.  Then the wrath starts.

 

You will notice in the 5th trumpet, only those who are not sealed will be harmed.

Go back and refresh, only 144,000 sealed.  No more and no less.  ....(the dead in Christ, have their seats already reserved in heaven, no need to seal them now, it was determined at their death.)

If only those without the seal of God can be harmed, then the ones with the seal of God must be around still, alive, protected, ....and not protected in their graves like you are saying, but living.

 

So these 144,000 are the end time christians, true disciples and not from any particular church or group, but scattered everywhere, and all have something in common - THE TRUTH.

Once you realise how hard it is to cut through all the crap given to us, you will appreciate that this small group who will be the firstfruits,  are unique in this day and age, and have passed the test during the most evil of days, not being swayed by the world, and seeing through all the tricks of the devil, have a right to be special in these wicked times. 

They have overcome before the door of the ark is closed.

And the rest of the christians who will be persecuted and purified for sacrificing their lives for Christ,  will have their reward also, but it doesn't mean they had all the truth,

but simply passed the test in the end, through faith,

and they will not be the firstfruits, the special elect,

because there is only 144,000 that overcame, prepared and waiting with oil in their lamps.

 

None of us can know who the 144,000, are but I can assure you that they have been treated as outcasts, trodden down, ex-communicated etc, and have really been persecuted within the 
"christian world" for being bold like the apostles, and for speaking truth.

Only God knows who they are.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Matthew 24 is only half of our Lord's answer to His disciples.  Matthew 25 was also included. 

 

Christ mentions those that are living in Judea after the abomination of desolation (Jews).  Then after the tribulation He mentions the sign of His coming, when He be coming in the clouds, and then He will send the angels to gather His elect (Christians who are ready).  Then finally, He will return to the earth and judge the nations (sheep and goats - Matt. 25:31-46), this is the sign of the end of the age.

 

 

Cheers

[iamlamad]

Matthew 24 is only half of our Lord's answer to His disciples.  Matthew 25 was also included. 

 

Christ mentions those that are living in Judea after the abomination of desolation (Jews).  Then after the tribulation He mentions the sign of His coming, when He be coming in the clouds, and then He will send the angels to gather His elect (Christians who are ready).  Then finally, He will return to the earth and judge the nations (sheep and goats - Matt. 25:31-46), this is the sign of the end of the age.

 

 

Cheers

Then He will send the angels to gather His elect (Jews [Hebrews] from both heaven and earth).

[the bride of Christ will have already been in heaven for 7 plus years, and will return WITH him.]

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Sister,

You stated:

The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.

My reply:

The seal in context to the 144,000 is alluding to the figure of speech, to convey that The Lord has already banked them, in his heavenly barn.

 

 

Hi Defending

 

Thankyou for your reply brother.

Let me just point out again, that the book of revelation is revealing to us the end times.  There is a little history in there, but it's to do with the future (end times) and for us, the very near future.

We are living in those end times now.  We are so close.  We will live and witness these prophesies come to life.  Some will live long enough to see Christ return. (two in the field, one taken etc)

You have to realise there have been apostles and disciples of Christ, from the days of Christ, all the way through to the end (now)

No modern day worshiper can add anything to the scriptures that is not already written, all he/she can have is a better understanding of those prophesies, the solids, because we are living in the times now, and can look back at what has been fulfilled.

 

As the Word of God has spread to all populations, the truth has been watered down over the years.

The pure Word of God has been corrupted by men, ie, new bible translations for a start, and the enemy has come into the fold preaching another doctrine, or many dotrines.

The truth is, God has kept his Word pure all along and we can access it.  There is only one translation that has not been corrupted, and spelling errors may of been corrected, and books that don't belong in there removed, but the doctrine remains the same, unchanged.

The fact is God has left us something pure to rely on - his Word.

It was prophesied that "the falling away" will occur in the last days, and this means that the truth has fallen away from men's ears.

If we are living in the last days, and we have fed on the pure Word of God, with a pure hunger for truth,

and have found our way despite all the muddy waters (false doctrines) around us, and relied directly on God's Word to teach us, to fill us with the spirit of truth,

and not relied on religion, or men to do the teaching, not believing and trusting in everything they say is true, but finding the truth for ourselves,

then this is an amazing feat for one living in the last days such as this in Gods eyes.

 

And according to the scriptures, although many are called, only a few are chosen,

then at the end of this era, when wickedness has reached it's peak, and Satan has contaminated everything that has to do with the truth,

and it's so bad that Christ has to come to put an end to it,

then those who do find the full truth are only the 144,000, in these last days. 

Not many when there are so many christians about.

 

Revelation 2:17   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

Hidden Manna - food from heaven.  Truth.  The truth is hidden in this day and age, and trying to find the truth is like trying to find a needle in a haystack - It's a gift, a reward, for dedication and loyalty, and for those weaned off the milk.

The truth is given to us now, not when we are dead.  We are supposed to be witnessess that everything God says is true, and will come true.  We testify before it happens, not after, ....and with perfect knowledge and understanding, not guesswork.

 

John 6:58   This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

Not live forever, then eat of this bread, but eat the bread first, then ye shall live forever.

 

 

So the 144,000 ticked all the right boxes, listened to instruction, fed on the Word of God, and follow the lamb wheresoever he goes and are alive when the sealing takes place, how can I make you see this brother?  Only the spirit of truth can show you from the scriptures,

because the angels are told to hold back the four winds, and not destroy anything until they are sealed, only 144,000.  Then the wrath starts.

 

You will notice in the 5th trumpet, only those who are not sealed will be harmed.

Go back and refresh, only 144,000 sealed.  No more and no less.  ....(the dead in Christ, have their seats already reserved in heaven, no need to seal them now, it was determined at their death.)

If only those without the seal of God can be harmed, then the ones with the seal of God must be around still, alive, protected, ....and not protected in their graves like you are saying, but living.

 

So these 144,000 are the end time christians, true disciples and not from any particular church or group, but scattered everywhere, and all have something in common - THE TRUTH.

Once you realise how hard it is to cut through all the crap given to us, you will appreciate that this small group who will be the firstfruits,  are unique in this day and age, and have passed the test during the most evil of days, not being swayed by the world, and seeing through all the tricks of the devil, have a right to be special in these wicked times. 

They have overcome before the door of the ark is closed.

And the rest of the christians who will be persecuted and purified for sacrificing their lives for Christ,  will have their reward also, but it doesn't mean they had all the truth,

but simply passed the test in the end, through faith,

and they will not be the firstfruits, the special elect,

because there is only 144,000 that overcame, prepared and waiting with oil in their lamps.

 

None of us can know who the 144,000, are but I can assure you that they have been treated as outcasts, trodden down, ex-communicated etc, and have really been persecuted within the 

"christian world" for being bold like the apostles, and for speaking truth.

Only God knows who they are.

 

I disagree. If they were born again at the time of the rapture, they would have been raptured, since the rapture will come before they are sealed. I think the truth of this matter is that WHEN they see the rapture, or the effects of the rapture, they will suddenly KNOW that Jesus was their Messiah and they will turn to Him then, too late to go up in the rapture, but just in time for God to use them during the first half of the week. (The two witnesses will be there in the second half.)

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Iamlamad,

Read:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

...

You stated:

"1 Thes. 4 tells us of a ONE TIME gathering of the Church.

It happens, not at the END of the world, but at the end of the church age, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

It is CLEARLY a gathering of both the dead and living at the same time."

Firstly the dead and the living are not gathered at the same time, as it states those living unto the coming of The Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep, meaning dead. This means the dead rise before those who still remain alive. What is the time frame from the dead to those who still remain alive, if the Lord's coming is a ONE TIME EVENT?

..........................................

Please understand that the dead and living are all redeemed by The Lord, meaning they are saved and have nothing to do with the wicked as you tried to associate the verse with, when describing the two groups. The dead and the living are all saved, Saint Paul is talking about the faithful and not the condemned living in darkness. Your taking things out of context. You can not impose what you are stating on two versus of scripture alone. You need to have a solid back bone to scriptural interpretation and can not pick and choose your own story, it is not a choose your own adventure book and you are not the narrator.

I realize that it says the dead in Christ rise FIRST. But what is the time frame between the dead in Christ rising and those alive being caught up? It will be MICROSECONDS at the most. Why do I say that? When the dead in Christ rise, that event will cause a HUGE, worldwide earthquake (Paul's "sudden destruction"). Paul tells us that those in Christ will not be hurt by the sudden destruction, but will get "salvation" or raptured instead. So for our purposes, these two events are ONE event we call the rapture. Yes, of course it is a resurrection also, but the church has called this even the rapture, to include both the dead and the living.

 

I know this is hard for some to get, for preconceived glasses have told them there IS no rapture of the living, when all will be raised at the same time. This theory is in CONFLICT with the general consensus of the rapture event. Untold millions believe (correctly) that one day soon they will be caught up. This is the "blessed hope" of the church. Luke is in agreement stating that we can escape from all these things that are coming. The TRUTH of this matter, is simple: there WILL BE a ONE TIME gathering of these alive and in Christ. We wll all raise at the same moment in time. It is a one time event for all, not  millions of events, one for each individual. Please tell us WHY this does not make sense? It makes perfect sense to millions.

 

The devil is going HARD AT IT, trying to discredit the rapture. He is trying to get as many as possible left behind, so he can have a try at trying to get them to accept the mark. It is his hope that through starvation and thirst, he can get many to just give up and take the mark. Maybe in this he will be right.

 

At the time of Jesus' resurrection, the ELDERS of the Old Covenant rose, as firstfruits of the Old Covenant. (their general harvest or resurrection will take place at the 7th vial that ends the week.) Next will be the Bride of Christ rising. After them will be the 144,000 as the first fruits of the JEWs and Hebrews alive today. Finally, after them will be the resurrection of those who lost their heads during the week, perhaps at the same time as the Old Testament saints rise, at the 7th vial. All of these will take a part of the "first" or most honorable resurrection.

 

Sorry, your theory is SO FAR from the norm of Christian thought, I wonder why YOU are not worried about it. TRust Paul, the rising of the just who are alive will all take place in ONE INSTANT of time. This group, alone with the dead in Christ will gather together in the air, and then rise to meet Christ in the air. Paul spelled all this out for you.

 

TIME still exists after the 7th trumpet. You are using a poor translation. A better rendering is that there will be NO MORE DELAY. The Kingdoms will have become OUR LORD's Kingdoms, and then God can do what He wants. For example, at the 7th trumpet there are 5 different and separate counts of time going on, the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of testifying, the 1260 days of fleeing, the 3 1/2 years of protection and the 42 months of authority. So TIME keeps right on after the 7th trumpet.

 

. The Lord descending with the shout of the archangel Michael is as the seventh angel sounding his trumpet.

 

YOu will have to prove such a statement from the bible, for again it is truly NOT what is written. If you are speaking of 1 Thes. 4 event, Paul tells us it will happen as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. WHERE in Revelation does the day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath begin? Of course with the 6th seal, which will be OVER 3 1/3 years before the 7th trumpet. You cannot mess with John's chronology, for it is God given and CORRECT.

 

The "brilliant" coming of Christ will certainly be His coming as shown in Rev. 19. Will His coming FOR His bride be a brilliant coming? Paul does not tell us. Perhaps it will.

 

you can not separate the raising of the dead and the living by an infinitesimal time instance. Please rethink and reflect upon your statement.

 

Why not? Can you prove by scripture that both events will not happen in a few microseconds? Is it only because it does not fit your theories? Or can you find scriptural proof? No "contextual merit?" Did you see Paul's use of the word THEN? His meaning is clear, the moment that the dead in Christ are risen, THEN those alive are caught up. Paul puts no time between the two events. You are the one doing that. Where are you finding this time in-between if Paul found none?

 

So Paul Himself ties these two events together with THEN - no time between. Paul goes on to show us in chapter 5 that this event will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. The great earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising will be the start of the Wrath of God, just as John shows us. Sorry, but your theory simply does not fit scriptures.

 

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, meaning we shall not stay dead, but will be immediately in a twinkling of an eye be transformed in the heavenly body. Saint Paul isn't talking about physical death here, but spiritual death after the earthly body dissolves.

 

This theory is MILES OFF from the norm of Christianity. Does that bother you at all?  That is not Paul's meaning AT ALL! That is your meaning. When Paul tells us we shall not all sleep (or die) but shall all be changed. that all means all AT THE SAME TIME. In one instant of time, all believers who are found worthy will be changed and will be caught up. At death it is the spirit man or inward man that is caught up. They will have to remain in heaven in spirit form UNTIL the time of the rapture. then Paul will bring all those spirits WITH HIM so they can meet their newly resurrected bodies. Of course I am speaking of those who are dead in Christ when HE comes for His bride.

 

Do you not understand Paul's paradigm in 1 Thes. 5? He speaks of TWO GROUPS of people:

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Notice THEY and THEM.

 

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Notice THEY and DRUNKEN

 

This is one group of people Paul addresses here: THEM, THEY, Those that live the night, and are DRUNKEN. Now, look at the other group:

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Notice YE, NOT in darkness, and the day will not overtake us as a thief.

 

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Again YE, "Children of light," "children of the day," NOT of the night, NOT of the darkness.

 

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This group WATCHES and stays SOBER.

 

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Notice US, "of the day," "sober," "with the breastplate of faith and love," and "helmet of the hope of Salvation."

 

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The first group, they and them, are appointed to wrath The second group, we and Us, have no appointment with wrath.

 

So what happens with each group the moment Jesus descends and shouts and the trumpet sounds? Those "in christ" get salvation and get raptured - ALL AT THE SAME TIME. And the sinners, they and them, what happens to them? THEY get the sudden destruction.

 

This is a ONE TIME SUDDEN event: Jesus descends and shouts, and in one moment all the dead In Christ rise, and as soon as they are all risen, THEN those alive are caught up, and then both groups are GATHERED TOGETHER. So tell us, HOW in the world can both groups be gathered together in the air if the second group is one at a time over 2000 years? Your theory is simply impossible. Read it again:  "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

Do you see it? "caught up together" cannot possibly be true if one group is not there! the truth is, BOTH groups, those who were dead and those who were just alive and changed are caught up TOGETHER. Therefore BOTH groups are there.

 

This is what Paul has written. Of course you will put your spin on it as so many before you have done. It is the rapture; the church has been calling it this for many years now. It will surely be taking place very soon. If you don't want to be left behind, you must come to believe what Paul has written.

 

LAMAD

[Sister]

Matthew 24 is only half of our Lord's answer to His disciples.  Matthew 25 was also included. 

 

Christ mentions those that are living in Judea after the abomination of desolation (Jews).  Then after the tribulation He mentions the sign of His coming, when He be coming in the clouds, and then He will send the angels to gather His elect (Christians who are ready).  Then finally, He will return to the earth and judge the nations (sheep and goats - Matt. 25:31-46), this is the sign of the end of the age.

 

 

Cheers

RollinTHUNDER

 

Thankyou brother,

I see Matthew 24 like this;

 

There's a cut off point.  The ark will be closed at a certain point when the kingdom is preached to the whole world.  This would have to be when the 144,000 are sealed, because once the trumpets start, no man can enter heaven (have his spot reserved).  No man can receive the truth now during this time, for the door is closed.  They will be in a spritual darkiness.  This verse 14 is generalised with no details.  We get the order of events from Revelations.

 Matthew 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

This abomination of desolation that stands in the holy place (Jerusalem) is the temple the false prophet will build for himself to sit in.  Daniel gives us more insight.

 Matthew 24:15   When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Daniel 12:11   And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:12   Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

The actual temple of the false prophet will take 3 1/2 years to build.  When it is declared finished on the 1290th day, but blessed are you if you reach the 1335th day.

In other words wait another 45 days, and this is when the Lord will come for you.

 

The false prophet is only given 3 1/2 years to rule in Jerusalem.  When his temple is declared finished and he sits in there as God, we have 45 days to fill.  This time period would be when the nations all come in and gather to war at the 6th trumpet.  They will be against the false prophet and his allies.  It will take time for all his enemies to plan, gather and come in to attack.  The false prophet will have to gather his allies also. 

So in the 45 days, this happens, and they start warring each other.  But Christ comes to stop that war or else no flesh would be saved. This would be his appearing in the air.  They get confused, and regather together to fight Christ at Meggido.  I would say if the firstfriuts (144,000) get picked up, it would be now on the 1335th day, unless there is a scripture to point out otherwise.

The rest will come shortly, after them, the dead in Christ, and the remainder of those who are alive in Christ, the whole majority together.

 

 

 Matthew 24:16   Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 Matthew 24:17   Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

 Matthew 24:18   Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

 Matthew 24:19   And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

 Matthew 24:20   But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

Yes, this is for the Jews who will be there in Israel at that time.  There will be a lot of panic. Israel will now be invaded by the kings of the east and his allies (Muslems) who have pure hatred for the false prophet, and for them, for letting this false prophet destroy their temple (Dome of the Rock) and building his own.  They will be brutal to all in their path.

 

Matthew 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Christ is generalising again, summing it up.  There will hard times.

[Defending the Name]

Thank you for all of your inputs

Edited September 21, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Sister]

I disagree. If they were born again at the time of the rapture, they would have been raptured, since the rapture will come before they are sealed. I think the truth of this matter is that WHEN they see the rapture, or the effects of the rapture, they will suddenly KNOW that Jesus was their Messiah and they will turn to Him then, too late to go up in the rapture, but just in time for God to use them during the first half of the week. (The two witnesses will be there in the second half.)

 

 

LAMAD

 

Lamad

 

 

Do you really think that the 144,000 who follow the lamb wheresoever he goes are Jews that suddenly find Christ at the end after it's too late? 

They would be babes in Christ then, and not weaned off the milk.  How would they be of use to anyone only having the milk? 

They would not be able to answer deep questions because they would be only beginners, learners.  What use would they be? What prophesies could they testify of?  One has to be weaned off milk first before understanding prophesies, otherwise he cannot take it.  It's a process.

Why would they be given such a high honour?

 

John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

Meat is strong food, solids, not milk.  We start on milk, then move to solids.  This strong meat is the deep spiritual hidden things.  Hidden manna, Hidden food.

 

 1 Peter 2:2   As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

 1 Corinthians 3:2   I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

  Hebrews 5:12   For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

  Hebrews 5:13   For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

 Can you see my point brother?  These 144,000 follow the lamb wheresoever he goes. 

They have been on a long journey with Christ, not just introduced to him.  They matured spiritually, and went on to solids. 

They sing as if it were a new song that no man could learn but them, this new song is the truth.  The full truth, and not part of the truth.

They have been given all the fruits of the spirit.

They are the elite, the special elect, the cream of the crop, and chosen.  They have passed the test and were found faithful when the thief comes at an hour no one expected.

They are sealed, not raptured until the end.

I even doubt they will be preaching, for this will be a time of darkness, when no man can receive truth. 

They will be spared. Spared from death, and all the plagues. 

I do not know what God will do with them, but they will be here on earth still at the 5th trumpet.

They may be used as slaves in prisons, but they will not be killed, nor will the plagues affect them.

They may be gahered together and hidden somewhere.  I do not know.

but they will be raised first, for they are the firstfruits. 

 

 

John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

John 15:16   Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

 

I disagree. If they were born again at the time of the rapture, they would have been raptured, since the rapture will come before they are sealed. I think the truth of this matter is that WHEN they see the rapture, or the effects of the rapture, they will suddenly KNOW that Jesus was their Messiah and they will turn to Him then, too late to go up in the rapture, but just in time for God to use them during the first half of the week. (The two witnesses will be there in the second half.)

 

 

LAMAD

 

Lamad

 

 

Do you really think that the 144,000 who follow the lamb wheresoever he goes are Jews that suddenly find Christ at the end after it's too late? 

They would be babes in Christ then, and not weaned off the milk.  How would they be of use to anyone only having the milk? 

They would not be able to answer deep questions because they would be only beginners, learners.  What use would they be? What prophesies could they testify of?  One has to be weaned off milk first before understanding prophesies, otherwise he cannot take it.  It's a process.

Why would they be given such a high honour?

 

John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

Meat is strong food, solids, not milk.  We start on milk, then move to solids.  This strong meat is the deep spiritual hidden things.  Hidden manna, Hidden food.

 

 1 Peter 2:2   As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

 1 Corinthians 3:2   I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

  Hebrews 5:12   For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

  Hebrews 5:13   For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

 Can you see my point brother?  These 144,000 follow the lamb wheresoever he goes. 

They have been on a long journey with Christ, not just introduced to him.  They matured spiritually, and went on to solids. 

They sing as if it were a new song that no man could learn but them, this new song is the truth.  The full truth, and not part of the truth.

They have been given all the fruits of the spirit.

They are the elite, the special elect, the cream of the crop, and chosen.  They have passed the test and were found faithful when the thief comes at an hour no one expected.

They are sealed, not raptured until the end.

I even doubt they will be preaching, for this will be a time of darkness, when no man can receive truth. 

They will be spared. Spared from death, and all the plagues. 

I do not know what God will do with them, but they will be here on earth still at the 5th trumpet.

They may be used as slaves in prisons, but they will not be killed, nor will the plagues affect them.

They may be gahered together and hidden somewhere.  I do not know.

but they will be raised first, for they are the firstfruits. 

 

 

John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

John 15:16   Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

Sister, it is OBVIOUS that it was not too late for them! They are sealed for their protection during the first half of the 70th week, and are then caught up to heaven as firstfruits to God. They may be babes in Christ, but God protects them, then calls them up to heaven. They are given high honor because they are the firstfruits of the Hebrews end time harvest. Really, does John give us even one hint of what they will do? I have heard sermons of how they will be great soul winners, covering the world for Jesus, yet John tells us NOTHING like that. Do they or will they have to DO something? Perhaps they will testify to the other Hebrew people that Jesus really IS their Messiah. Perhaps they will change the hearts of some. We don't know because John tells us nothing about what they will do.

 

Perhaps you don't understand John Chronology. The rapture of the church will take place JUST BEFORE they are sealed. If they were born again at that time, they would be caught up with all the rest who are born again. Unless God leaves them behind for His purposes. But there is not one scripture that even hints that God will leave anyone that is found worthy behind. Therefore I believe it is the rapture that convinces them Jesus is REAL. Perhaps Jesus will be SEEN before He is hidden in a cloud. Or perhaps He will be seen THROUGH the cloud. We don't know because the scriptures are silent on this. For SURE He will be seen by every eye for his coming in Rev. 19. But do those scriptures pertain to His coming FOR His bride?

 

Therefore I think your verses on milk versus meat do not fit their situation.

However, thanks for answering.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Sister wrote,

There's a cut off point.  The ark will be closed at a certain point when the kingdom is preached to the whole world.  This would have to be when the 144,000 are sealed, because once the trumpets start, no man can enter heaven (have his spot reserved).  No man can receive the truth now during this time, for the door is closed.  They will be in a spritual darkiness.  This verse 14 is generalised with no details.  We get the order of events from Revelations.

 

Sister, there will be SO MANY that will make it to heaven during the days of great tribulation. Every one who refuses the Mark and loses his or her head will make it to heaven, if they do this for their belief in Jesus. Where do you find the door closed once the trumpets begin?

 

Indeed, the door for the rapture will be closed before the Wrath of God comes at the 6th seal, but that is only the door for the Bride. Untold millions will come by way of death.

 

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

 

LAMAD