spiritual death

[Butch5]

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

I have studied it. Have you noticed that no one has present a single passage of Scripture that says anything about spiritual death? Rather people speak of passages that say death and then they say it's spiritual death. They say it, the passage doesn't. Do a computer search for the phrase spiritual death in the Bible and you won't find the phrase anywhere.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

I'll have to disagree, the Bible doesn't speak of spiritual death in reference to humans.

Paul speaking of himself:

Romans 7:9 (NKJV) I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

 

Where do you see anything about "spiritual" in this passage?

 

A person, physically alive, speaking of death in the past tense. Many of Jesus' descriptions, and Paul's, share this construct. You need to "re-interpret" each of them to make them fit a future, physical death.

 

I believe you're way off trying to apply day-fo-a-thousand-years to this. The Psalmist clearly has no such use in mind, and Peter tells us the very limited application that he makes of it. It isn't some kind of "general rule" that can be applied as an allegorical approach to all scripture. No other place in scripture do we see any man of God applying scripture in such a way. The 6-day creation is commemorated with the seventh day of a literal week (Gen 2:3); when Daniel read Jeremiah and understood the captivity would be 70 years he saw that time was almost up and prayed to God to remember His promises (Dan 9). To allegorize Adam's "day" is without basis.

 

John 3 says "except a man be born again". This clearly goes beyond Nicodemus!

 

The possible error of using the term "spiritual death" is to then try to justify annihilationism, the idea that those who fail to come to Christ through grace by faith are simply "no more" after their physical death, and that for them there is no eternal soul and no eternal punishment. Again, lots of scripture needs to allegorized away, made of no effect, for this to be true.

 

There is basis for a day being as a thousand years, I gave both Biblical and historical evidence that this was the understanding. However, there is more evidence from Paul if necessary.

 

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,

8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,

9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.

10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said,`They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'

11 So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest1.'"

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion1."

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?

17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

NKJ  Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them1, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest1,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works1";

5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest1."

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts1."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

(Heb 3:7-11 NKJ)

 

Paul concludes that there remains a rest, a Sabbath for the people of God. He says that that rest, God's rest is the 7th day. The rest is obtained through faith, he says the Gospel was preached to them as well as to us. It is through the Gospel that one attains that rest, the 7th day. What is the message of the Gospel? It is the kingdom of God, thus the 7th day is the kingdom of God. John tells us about the kingdom of God.

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)

 

we can see from John that the 7th day is 1000 years. Since Paul calls the rest the 7th day, it implies six prior days. Are these six days 6000 years? Let's look at what God said in Genesis. 

 

3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3 NKJ)

 

Through a study of the Chronology it can be shown that God said this on a Jubilee year. The Jews were supposed to work the land for six years and let rest on the seventh. God told them to do this for 7 cycles which would total 49 years. He said that on the 50th year they were to declare a year of Jubilee which was a year of release. So, in the 49th and 50th years they would not work the land it would rest.

 

8 `And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years.

9 `Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.

10 `And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you; and each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you shall return to his family.

(Lev 25:8-10 NKJ)

 

This was the cycle the Jews were to keep, In the statement from Gen 6,

 

3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3 NKJ)

 

The word translated years means a measure of time or a cycle, It doesn't necessarily mean 365 days. If God made that statement on a Jubilee year as the Chronology indicates then the passage could very well be understood as 120 Jubliees. If we do the math 120 X 50, we get 6000 years. Thus the passage would say that God's spirit would strive with for 6000 years or 6 days. if the 7th day is the kingdom and is 1000 years this fits perfectly with 6000 year prior being the other six days. 

 

However, there's more. Jesus said,

 

32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox,`Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

33 "Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem. (Luk 13:32-33 NKJ)

 

It would seem from verse 33 that Jesus wasn't talking about three 24 hour days here as He said He would be traveling the day following. In verse 32 He said He would be perfected or completed on the third day, yet He was casting out demons and performing cures, "today and tomorrow". It's been almost 2000 years since Jesus said that. Consider this. From the time of Creation and Adam until the time of Abraham is 2000 years, from Abraham to Christ is 2000 years, if "today and tomorrow" is 2000 years, then the third day in Jesus' statement is actually teh seventh day from creation. Scripture says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh. At the resurrection, the beginning of the Seventh day Jesus complete, He will be installed on the throne to reign over the nations of the earth.

 

Also consider Hosea.

 

14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.

15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

NKJ  Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.

2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. (Hos 5:14-2 NKJ)

 

Scripture says that after two days Israel would return to God and God would lift them up. We know that was not two 24 hour days, yet God has cast off Israel for almost 2000 years (or two days) now. Scripture says they will be lifted up on the third day. Jesus said, I cast out demons and do cures today and tomorrow and on the third day I am perfected. It seems these two days are the same period of time, then on the third day Jesus is perfect and Israel is lifted up. Israel has been cast of since they crucified Christ.

 

There is also much historical evidence to support this.

 

Clement of Rome6 (AD, 30-100) & Justin (AD, 110-165)

‚And the fact that it was not said of the seventh day equally with the other days, ‘And there was evening, and there was morning,’ is a distinct indication of the consummation which is to take place in it before it is finished, as the fathers declare, especially St. Clement, and Irenaeus, and Justin the martyr and philosopher.‛                                                      

From the writings of Anastasius

 

From the Fragments of Papias.

Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ, and Clemens, and Pantaenus the priest of [the Church] of the Alexandrians, and the wise Ammonius, the ancient and first expositors, who agreed with each other, who understood the work of the six days as referring to Christ and the whole Church.

 

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

The Epistle of Barnabas

“And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, “Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.” (Ps. 90:4; 2 Pet. 3:8) Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. “And He rested on the seventh day.” This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.

 

Of Irenaeus and Justin

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” (Matt. 8:11)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus

[He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years. 3. For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: “Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.” (Gen. 2:2) This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; (2 Pet. 3:8) and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus

Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things’ sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus

These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4

Commodianus

Adam was the first who fell, and that he might shun the precepts of God, Belial was his tempter by the lust of the palm tree. And he conferred on us also what he did, whether of good or of evil, as being the chief of all that was born from him; and thence we die by his means, as he himself, receding from the divine, became an outcast from the Word. We shall be immortal when six thousand years are accomplished.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4

Commodianus

This has pleased Christ, that the dead should rise again, yea, with their bodies; and those, too, whom in this world the fire has burned, when six thousand years are completed, and the world has come to an end. The heaven in the meantime is changed with an altered course, for then the wicked are burnt up with divine fire.

 

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5

Cyprian

2. But what more fitly or more fully agrees with my own care and solicitude, than to prepare the people divinely entrusted to me, and an army established in the heavenly camp, by assiduous exhortations against the darts and weapons of the devil? For he cannot be a soldier fitted for the war who has not first been exercised in the field; nor will he who seeks to gain the crown of contest be rewarded on the racecourse, unless he first considers the use and skilfulness of his powers. It is an ancient adversary and an old enemy with whom we wage our battle: six thousand years are now nearly completed since the devil first attacked man. All kinds of temptation, and arts, and snares for his overthrow, he has learned by the very practice of long years. If he finds Christ’s soldier unprepared, if unskilled, if not careful and watching with his whole heart; he circumvents him if ignorant, he deceives him incautious, he cheats him inexperienced. But if a man, keeping the Lord’s precepts, and bravely adhering to Christ, stands against him, he must needs be conquered, because Christ, whom that man confesses, is unconquered.

 

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Methodius

IX. He says that Origen, after having fabled many things concerning the eternity of the universe, adds this also: Nor yet from Adam, as some say, did man, previously not existing, first take his existence and come into the world. Nor again did the world begin to be made six days before the creation of Adam. But if any one should prefer to differ in these points, let him first say, whether a period of time be not easily reckoned from the creation of the world, according to the Book of Moses, to those who so receive it, the voice of prophecy here proclaiming: “Thou art God from everlasting, and world without end. . . . For a thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday: seeing that is past as a watch in the night.” (Ps. 90:2, 4) For when a thousand years are reckoned as one day in the sight of God, and from the creation of the world to His rest is six days, so also to our time, six days are defined, as those say who are clever arithmeticians. Therefore, they say that an age of six thousand years extends from Adam to our time. For they say that the judgment will come on the seventh day, that is in the seventh thousand years.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Methodius

For since in six days God made the heaven and the earth, and finished the whole world, and rested on the seventh day from all His works which He had made, and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, (Gen. 2:1) so by a figure in the seventh month, when the fruits of the earth have been gathered in, we are commanded to keep the feast to the Lord, which signifies that, when this world shall be terminated at the seventh thousand years, when God shall have completed the world, He shall rejoice in us.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Methodius

For I also, taking my journey, and going forth from the Egypt of this life, came first to the resurrection, which is the true Feast of the Tabernacles, and there having set up my tabernacle, adorned with the fruits of virtue, on the first day of the resurrection, which is the day of judgment, celebrate with Christ the millennium of rest, which is called the seventh day, even the true Sabbath.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

Lactantius

Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says, (Ps. 90:4; see also 2 Pet. 3:8) “In Thy sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day.” And as God laboured during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labour during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquillity and rest from the labours which the world now has long endured.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

Lactanctius

But we, whom the Holy Scriptures instruct to the knowledge of the truth, know the beginning and the end of the world, respecting which we will now speak in the end of our work, since we have explained respecting the beginning in the second book. Therefore let the philosophers, who enumerate thousands of ages from the beginning of the world, know that the six thousandth year is not yet completed, and that when this number is completed the consummation must take place, and the condition of human affairs be remodelled for the better, the proof of which must first be related, that the matter itself may be plain. God completed the world and this admirable work of nature in the space of six days, as is contained in the secrets of Holy Scripture, and consecrated the seventh day, on which He had rested from His works. But this is the Sabbath-day, which in the language of the Hebrews received its name from the number,107I-1g-107 whence the seventh is the legitimate and complete number.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

Lactantius

Perhaps some one may now ask when these things of which we have spoken are about to come to pass? I have already shown above, that when six thousand years shall be completed this change must take place, and that the last day of the extreme conclusion is now drawing near. It is permitted us to know respecting the signs, which are spoken by the prophets, for they foretold signs by which the consummation of the times is to be expected by us from day to day, and to be feared.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

Lactantius

For six thousand years have not yet been completed, and when this number shall be made up, then at length all evil will be taken away, that justice alone may reign.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 8

Bardesan

And this,” says he, “is one synchronism of them all; that is, the time of one such synchronism of them. So that from hence it appears that to complete 100 such synchronisms there will be required six thousands of years. Thus :— 200 revolutions of Saturn, six thousands of years; 500 revolutions of Jupiter, 6 thousands of years; 4 thousand revolutions of Mars, 6 thousands of years; Six thousand revolutions of the Sun, 6 thousands of years; 7 thousand and 200 revolutions of Venus, 6 thousands of years; 12 thousand revolutions of Mercury, 6 thousands of years; 72 thousand revolutions of the Moon, 6 thousands of years.” These things did Bardesan thus compute when desiring to show that this world would stand only six thousands of years.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

I'll have to disagree, the Bible doesn't speak of spiritual death in reference to humans.

Paul speaking of himself:

Romans 7:9 (NKJV) I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

 

Where do you see anything about "spiritual" in this passage?

 

A person, physically alive, speaking of death in the past tense. Many of Jesus' descriptions, and Paul's, share this construct. You need to "re-interpret" each of them to make them fit a future, physical death.

 

I believe you're way off trying to apply day-fo-a-thousand-years to this. The Psalmist clearly has no such use in mind, and Peter tells us the very limited application that he makes of it. It isn't some kind of "general rule" that can be applied as an allegorical approach to all scripture. No other place in scripture do we see any man of God applying scripture in such a way. The 6-day creation is commemorated with the seventh day of a literal week (Gen 2:3); when Daniel read Jeremiah and understood the captivity would be 70 years he saw that time was almost up and prayed to God to remember His promises (Dan 9). To allegorize Adam's "day" is without basis.

 

John 3 says "except a man be born again". This clearly goes beyond Nicodemus!

 

The possible error of using the term "spiritual death" is to then try to justify annihilationism, the idea that those who fail to come to Christ through grace by faith are simply "no more" after their physical death, and that for them there is no eternal soul and no eternal punishment. Again, lots of scripture needs to allegorized away, made of no effect, for this to be true.

 

 

Once would only need to be born again if he thought his physical birth got him into the kingdom. Jesus' point is how one can see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus thought he could see/enter the kingdom of God because he was a physical offspring of Abraham. However, Jesus tell him no, that's not gonna do it. Being born of water and the Spirit is a metaphor for baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. It's just like Peter said,

 

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

 

While Gentile also need to repent and receive the Holy Spirit, the phrase "born again" is a reference to the Jewish thinking, 'I'm the seed of Abraham so I automatically get included'. If you take notice, the Scriptures only use the term "Born again" when referring to those who are Jewish.

 

The possible error of using the term "spiritual death" is to then try to justify annihilationism, the idea that those who fail to come to Christ through grace by faith are simply "no more" after their physical death, and that for them there is no eternal soul and no eternal punishment. Again, lots of scripture needs to allegorized away, made of no effect, for this to be true.

 

Actually, I believe it's the other way around. Those who deny annihilationism, or accept the immortal soul doctrine are the ones who must allegorized away the Scriptures. These is not a single passage of Scripture that says man is inherently immortal, actually, Scripture denies it.

 

There is also nothing in Scripture that talks of spiritual death other than Satan and the demons being destroyed

[Persuaded]

Ugh. I had hoped you had a different point, that was some sort of nuance to this topic, but annihilation is too far off to be worthy to address. The contrarian interpretation to every scripture you've provided should be evidence of the loneliness of your position.

[Butch5]

Ugh. I had hoped you had a different point, that was some sort of nuance to this topic, but annihilation is too far off to be worthy to address. The contrarian interpretation to every scripture you've provided should be evidence of the loneliness of your position.

Seriously? you're arguing for something that doesn't have a single verse of Scriptural support and you're saying my interpretation is contrarian?

[Defending the Name]

When the word talks of sin causing death it's Spiritual death not physical death..when 10 people say so and one says 10 people are wrong who is right???

Everybody has physical death..they are warning what sin causes..seperatiuon from God.

I dust my feeet with this now.With some you can never concince..you need to ask your pastor and study for yourself.I won't go on about myself but I will say I have studied this over 40 yrs and am not dumb..so carry on if you wish.

Yes brother you are right, spiritual death is separation from the risen Lord. It means that after we put to rest the first ADAM we have a home, that is a permanent dwelling place prepared for us in the heavenly realm with our Lord. Either people will migrate from this earthly life to put on immortality or they will go off naked into the abyss, that is outer darkness of hell.

In that respect true believers walk as the dead amongst the living because they have already considered themselves dead to the carnal ways of this world.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

Spiritual death is separation of the soul from God. It is so important because eternity is forever.

 

(Ephesians 2:1-3) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

(Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Colossians 2:13) When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

( Ephesians 4:18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

I'll have to disagree, the Bible doesn't speak of spiritual death in reference to humans.

 

here is a scripture that speaks of spiritual death...

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

 

We know God does not lie, and we know Adam lived quite awhile after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Well, at least physically he lived.  God is specific with His words.

 

I'll agree that God does not lie, however, this passage says nothing about anything spiritual. I think a lot of people look at this passage and think, since Adam didn't physically die within 24 hours this passage must be talking about some other kind of death. I would submit that it is not, that it is speaking of physical death. There is anther way to understand the passage that i believe more closely fits the Biblical evidence. The answer lies in the word "Day." David said,

 

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.  (Psa 90:4 KJV)

 

When Peter is questioned about why it is taking so long for the Lord to return he alludes to this passage from David.

 

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2Pe 3:8-9 KJV)

 

Peter said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Adam lived 930 years, he died just short of one day. No human being has lived for 1000 years. The oldest man to ever live was Methuselah who lived for 969 years.

 

This understanding of the passage is an ancient one, it was held by the Jews and the early Christians.

 

We can see this is the Jewish understanding of the Passage from the book of Jubilees,

 

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.

30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

 

It was also the early Christian understanding of the passage.

 

2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

the bible also says the wages of sin is death.  when adam ate of the fruit His spirit did die.  he lost the connection to God by fellowship, which is why if you keep reading when God came walking in the cool of the day in the garden He asked adam where are you?(when God asks a question He already knows the answer and wants us to think)  when we sin even today fellowship stops until we repent... the peace fades.  the life of man is the breath of God.  this is why we need to have Jesus come into our heart to be saved... sin kills.  its like a phone that gets disconnected.  the phone still works, but the line is dead.  ALL scripture has meaning for physical and spiritual.  its why we have scripture that instructs us to keep our lamps trimmed and burning.  the lamp is our spirit.  the wick needs to be kept trimmed because the top gets black and crusty, burnt and good for nothing.  without trimming this sin from our heart the lamps light grows dim and eventually goes out completely.   this sin is spiritual death.  some people are alive now in the flesh but walking around dead in spirit... literally walking dead

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly... John 10:10

 

Adam's spirit died? The only spirit in Adam or anyone is God's breath/spirit of life. Gen 2:7 God formed man from the dust of the ground. Man consists of the elements of the earth he is not a spirit nor does he have a spirit that is "him." The only spirit in man is God's spirit. From that we can conclude that it is not possible for man to be spiritually dead.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spiritual death is separation of the soul from God. It is so important because eternity is forever.

 

(Ephesians 2:1-3) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

(Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Colossians 2:13) When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

( Ephesians 4:18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

I'll have to disagree, the Bible doesn't speak of spiritual death in reference to humans.

 

here is a scripture that speaks of spiritual death...

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

 

We know God does not lie, and we know Adam lived quite awhile after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Well, at least physically he lived.  God is specific with His words.

 

I'll agree that God does not lie, however, this passage says nothing about anything spiritual. I think a lot of people look at this passage and think, since Adam didn't physically die within 24 hours this passage must be talking about some other kind of death. I would submit that it is not, that it is speaking of physical death. There is anther way to understand the passage that i believe more closely fits the Biblical evidence. The answer lies in the word "Day." David said,

 

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.  (Psa 90:4 KJV)

 

When Peter is questioned about why it is taking so long for the Lord to return he alludes to this passage from David.

 

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2Pe 3:8-9 KJV)

 

Peter said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Adam lived 930 years, he died just short of one day. No human being has lived for 1000 years. The oldest man to ever live was Methuselah who lived for 969 years.

 

This understanding of the passage is an ancient one, it was held by the Jews and the early Christians.

 

We can see this is the Jewish understanding of the Passage from the book of Jubilees,

 

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.

30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

 

It was also the early Christian understanding of the passage.

 

2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

the bible also says the wages of sin is death.  when adam ate of the fruit His spirit did die.  he lost the connection to God by fellowship, which is why if you keep reading when God came walking in the cool of the day in the garden He asked adam where are you?(when God asks a question He already knows the answer and wants us to think)  when we sin even today fellowship stops until we repent... the peace fades.  the life of man is the breath of God.  this is why we need to have Jesus come into our heart to be saved... sin kills.  its like a phone that gets disconnected.  the phone still works, but the line is dead.  ALL scripture has meaning for physical and spiritual.  its why we have scripture that instructs us to keep our lamps trimmed and burning.  the lamp is our spirit.  the wick needs to be kept trimmed because the top gets black and crusty, burnt and good for nothing.  without trimming this sin from our heart the lamps light grows dim and eventually goes out completely.   this sin is spiritual death.  some people are alive now in the flesh but walking around dead in spirit... literally walking dead

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly... John 10:10

 

Adam's spirit died? The only spirit in Adam or anyone is God's breath/spirit of life. Gen 2:7 God formed man from the dust of the ground. Man consists of the elements of the earth he is not a spirit nor does he have a spirit that is "him." The only spirit in man is God's spirit. From that we can conclude that it is not possible for man to be spiritually dead.

 

keep reading past formed from the dust of the ground.  it says God breathed the breath of life into the formed up soil and man became a living soul.  adam did have Gods spirit in him.  now what does it say about... Someone breathing on someone and then saying...   receive ye The Holy Ghost?  (John 20:22)

 

I've read the passage many times, the point is that the spirit is not man, it's God's spirit. If a man doesn't have a spirit that is man then the man cannot die spiritually. I don't know where people get the idea that spiritual death is separation from God, I've not seen that in the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't even speak of spiritual death.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spiritual death is separation of the soul from God. It is so important because eternity is forever.

 

(Ephesians 2:1-3) And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

(Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Colossians 2:13) When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

( Ephesians 4:18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

I'll have to disagree, the Bible doesn't speak of spiritual death in reference to humans.

 

here is a scripture that speaks of spiritual death...

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

 

We know God does not lie, and we know Adam lived quite awhile after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Well, at least physically he lived.  God is specific with His words.

 

I'll agree that God does not lie, however, this passage says nothing about anything spiritual. I think a lot of people look at this passage and think, since Adam didn't physically die within 24 hours this passage must be talking about some other kind of death. I would submit that it is not, that it is speaking of physical death. There is anther way to understand the passage that i believe more closely fits the Biblical evidence. The answer lies in the word "Day." David said,

 

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.  (Psa 90:4 KJV)

 

When Peter is questioned about why it is taking so long for the Lord to return he alludes to this passage from David.

 

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2Pe 3:8-9 KJV)

 

Peter said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Adam lived 930 years, he died just short of one day. No human being has lived for 1000 years. The oldest man to ever live was Methuselah who lived for 969 years.

 

This understanding of the passage is an ancient one, it was held by the Jews and the early Christians.

 

We can see this is the Jewish understanding of the Passage from the book of Jubilees,

 

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.

30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

 

It was also the early Christian understanding of the passage.

 

2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

the bible also says the wages of sin is death.  when adam ate of the fruit His spirit did die.  he lost the connection to God by fellowship, which is why if you keep reading when God came walking in the cool of the day in the garden He asked adam where are you?(when God asks a question He already knows the answer and wants us to think)  when we sin even today fellowship stops until we repent... the peace fades.  the life of man is the breath of God.  this is why we need to have Jesus come into our heart to be saved... sin kills.  its like a phone that gets disconnected.  the phone still works, but the line is dead.  ALL scripture has meaning for physical and spiritual.  its why we have scripture that instructs us to keep our lamps trimmed and burning.  the lamp is our spirit.  the wick needs to be kept trimmed because the top gets black and crusty, burnt and good for nothing.  without trimming this sin from our heart the lamps light grows dim and eventually goes out completely.   this sin is spiritual death.  some people are alive now in the flesh but walking around dead in spirit... literally walking dead

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly... John 10:10

 

Adam's spirit died? The only spirit in Adam or anyone is God's breath/spirit of life. Gen 2:7 God formed man from the dust of the ground. Man consists of the elements of the earth he is not a spirit nor does he have a spirit that is "him." The only spirit in man is God's spirit. From that we can conclude that it is not possible for man to be spiritually dead.

 

keep reading past formed from the dust of the ground.  it says God breathed the breath of life into the formed up soil and man became a living soul.  adam did have Gods spirit in him.  now what does it say about... Someone breathing on someone and then saying...   receive ye The Holy Ghost?  (John 20:22)

 

I've read the passage many times, the point is that the spirit is not man, it's God's spirit. If a man doesn't have a spirit that is man then the man cannot die spiritually. I don't know where people get the idea that spiritual death is separation from God, I've not seen that in the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't even speak of spiritual death.

 

what happens when you serve sin?

 

What do you mean, what happens? You sin.

[Butch5]

Persuaded, my last post to you seemed a little harsh and I'd like to apologize.