Remarriage after divorce

[Guest Butero]

@InChrist, the problem is, and you admit, that neither Paul nor Jesus actually state that lack of love or provision are grounds for divorce.  Even if they were considered things a man was supposed to provide for his wife in a marriage contract, nothing in the New Testament affirms those as reasons why divorce and re-marriage are acceptable, which is what I have been saying all along.  I have said that there are only two reasons in the New Testament divorce and re-marriage are allowed, and that is adultery and physical abandonment.  I said anything beyond that is just our opinion.  You stated that people would have just known there were additional reasons, but that is only an opinion, based on how you went back and considered the way an old marriage contract was written, and based on the way divorce is taught in the law of Moses.  All of that is opinion.  It is not what is actually taught in the New Testament.  There is no way to prove that we are supposed to just understand these things are valid reasons for divorce.  If we simply take what is written in the New Testament, they are not grounds for divorce.  Certainly abuse is not given as a reason for divorce anywhere, and if lack of love were a reason for divorce, Leah had grounds to divorce Jacob.  There is nothing within scripture that can prove your position.  You are forced to go outside scripture, like finding an old marriage license among the dead sea scrolls, to make an argument.  It is extra-Biblical.  That is no different than me taking manuscripts found among the dead sea scrolls to create a doctrinal position.  Yes, the law of Moses is part of the Bible, and I do give weight to that, but Jesus explained what is acceptable to God with regard to divorce, and that is what I have to go by. 

 

Going back to abuse, the issue to me isn't that I go around trying to condemn a person that left an abusive marriage and later got re-married.  It is not really my place to condemn anyone.  My only concern is that a person understand what the Bible teaches on the subject and then make up their own mind what they are going to do.  The judge they need to worry about is Jesus, not me.  I acknowledge everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God at times in their life.  I am not going to condemn someone for doing something wrong, but Biblically, to divorce and re-marry for any cause other than fornication (adultery) or physical abandonment is guilty of adultery in the sight of God.  Is that a perpetual state of adultery?  The Bible doesn't say.  Can the couple repent of their sin and dedicate their marriage to God and move on?  That is what I would advise, but that is based on my own opinion, and it is not found in scripture.  Within myself, it seems like the best course of action, but I can't speak directly for God on this matter.  He doesn't tell me it is ok in his Word.  What I am seeing people here do is try to make the Word say what they desire it say to give everyone a clean conscience when they disobey scripture, and I am not comfortable doing that.  I am not comfortable mixing evidence like an old marriage license with scripture to create a doctrine. 

[GoldenEagle]

@ Golden Eagle, the wife is to obey her husband in everything unless he tells her to sin.  It doesn't matter if he is abusive.  Thanks for clearing up what you meant, because I didn't understand the connection.  If the wife is obeying her husband, why does he have to use intimidation tactics to get her to do something she is already doing?  Wouldn't he be doing that if she is failing to be obedient as she is commanded in scripture to do?  I say that realizing that some who are truly abusive will never be satisfied no matter what.  If that is the case, then this woman truly has a cross to carry.  I already told you how I would handle physical abuse, but if it is verbal abuse, I would not suggest she would be right to separate.  She needs grace to deal with it. 

I would disagree that it does matter if a husband is abusive. Again, clearly you have limited experience with abuse. Abuse is never just verbal in nature. An abusive husband will keep escalating his abuse that overflows into spiritual, emotional, intellectual, and physical areas.

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

@ Sevenseas, I am saying that according to Genesis, God made the husband ruler over his wife, and that is the case even if he is unsaved.  His being saved has nothing to do with it.  It is just that a Christian man is supposed to submit to Christ, as the wife is supposed to submit to her husband.  The whole saved verses unsaved husband argument is irrelevant to the Christian wife's responsibility. 

Regarding Genesis are you referring to Genesis 3:16?

 

¹⁶ To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

    in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be foryour husband,

    and he shall rule over you.”

So I understand what you're saying. Please clarify. So a Christian wife who is subjected to abuse over and over again by a non-believing husband should just endure it?

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

I have already addressed that InChrist.  The reason I know they have to have entered the marriage as unbelievers is because the Bible states we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers.  That means that if you marry an unbeliever, you have already disobeyed scripture.  You made your bed, so now you have to lie in it.  Of course, we also know that it is up to the unbeliever to choose to stay or depart.  The ball is in their court, so the believer isn't free to leave.

 

I completely reject what you posted in post #224 as twisting of scripture.  It was not assumed that lack of love and material support was grounds for divorce.  How is either of those things stated on the marriage certificate?  I have a marriage license, and it doesn't say that.  Do you actually have a copy of a Jewish marriage license that states that, or did you just make it up?  You seem to state this as a fact.  I'm sure you will have no problem presenting facts. 

 

All you did in post #224 is tell us that Jesus didn't teach divorce for any cause was wrong, and you give a list of personal opinions like they are facts.  You don't give any proof that anything you said is true.  I gave you the actual words of Jesus, and he is very clear that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, pornieo.  That is it.  Paul gives the cause of physical abandonment, not spiritual abandonment, and it is up to the unbeliever to choose to stay or go.

Interesting. So let's say one believes in loosing salvation. Can one be unequally yoked due to that? Perhaps I missed it where did you explain the passages in context from post #224?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

How can someone defend a stance the Bible does not permit?

 

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

 

How is this debated???

If someone holds to a different doctrine than what Christ teaches, what religion is that?

 

Why justify disobedience?

Only to feel okay about living in sin.

So apostle Paul is following a different religion then? Paul does condone divorce for a different reason. 

 

 

Here is a interesting question. What is adultery? We know Israel committed adultery without a sexual act. So adultery is not neccesarily sexual. Since the root word can be translated in a non-sexual way then the question needs to be asked

 

No offense, seriously, I take the personal out of this and do not mean this as an attack. We are in a doctrine forum, not a personal counseling one. I really don't, and I do love you. But this proves my point exactly

How is this debated???

There are different types of adultery and what is alluded to here in Matthew should be obvious.

 

No one can put away their wife except for the Greek word porneia which has been translated as fornication. Which is illicit sexual intercourse.

moichaō is the word used for adultery which is 

1. to have unlawful intercourse with another's wife

 

Perhaps because you are newer to the site but posting like this is seen as YELLING online. Which is a bit rude. I'm sure that wasn't your intent.  Just an FYI.

God bless,

GE

[Warrior777]

 

Should a physical abused spouse separate if it gets too violent or life threatening, yes! Should there be reconciliation and repentance, yes! In any case if the spouse separates then they need to stay single until they can reconcile and nobody is or was implying that a spouse should stay in the same house with that violent partner.

 

This is the key issue here….does the couple stay separated then for life? Waiting for the abusive spouse to repent? What if the abusive spouse refuses to repent? Again I will explain this below

 

 

 

1 Cor 7:10-11

 

 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.¹¹ But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

 

I think that clearly answers your question. Everything else is speculation and/or unbiblical.

Nobody says it's easy or fair or a good deal, it's just what scripture says, if we make more out of it we are moving out of alignment with the word of God.

 

 

 

 

ABUSE is NOT a biblical reason for divorce, NOWHERE in scripture is it mentioned (now specifically talking about our new covenant and the rules that JESUS and PAUL set which applies to us today). One can read things into scripture by speculation as with all scripture and make assumptions but it is not a valid comparison that one could build doctrine on.

 

 

You state we shouldn’t build our doctrines on assumptions I totally agree. The best approach is to allow scripture to interpret scripture

 

What is the scriptural definition of a Christian who refuses to repent?

Matthew 18v.15-17, If your brother sins against you,go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that “every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”  If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

So we can agree scripture tell us that if a Christian refuses to repent and refuses to listen to the church….then that Christian should be treated as I would a pagan?

This is scripture telling us so, this is not an assumption or an opinion.

 

Now lets look again at the following

1 Timothy 5:8, If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

If a Christian who beats his wife, is that Christian providing for his immediate family? Is this Christian providing the emotional needs for his family? The answer is no, how can he be? In what shape or form does this Christian provide for his family?

 

In this case the believer is said to have denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

Now you have scriptural evidence on the conduct of a believer who has denied repentance therefore denying the faith and must be treated as a Pagan or treated worse than an unbeliever.

Now that we have a “Christian” who is scripturally called an unbeliever under certain conditions….there is no theological difference between the unbeliever just described by Mathew 18: 15-17 & 1 timothy 5:8 to that of an unbeliever 1 Corinthians 7:15, they are one of the same now.

 

Unless you can tell me the difference between the unbeliever in Mathew 18 and Timothy 5 with the unbeliever in 1 Corinthians 7:15?

 

Lets relook at 1 Corinthians 7:15, below is the greek translation

If more over the unbeliever separates himself, let him separate himself…..

 

I want to focus on this first bit, it mentions separates himself.

 

Based on Scripture Jeremiah 3, Israel’s covenant with God is pictured as a marriage contract. God had kept His covenant promises, but Israel had continually broken them without repentance or any attempt to right the wrongs. In verse 8 God says, “And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce. . . .”

Though the separation and divorce of Israel from God was based on Adultry, the principle still stays the same, it does not change…if an abusive Christian continuously breaks his marriage covenant by physically abusing his wife, refusing to repent, the marriage covenant becomes irretrievably broken…He has separated himself from the marriage covenant. Any Christian who abuses his wife has placed His marriage in a position of disrepair, by further neglecting to repent makes this repair irreversible…It is the unbeliever (Christian Abuser) who has now separated himself by his actions from the marriage covenant….In this case let the unbeliever (Christian Abuser) separate himself….so that the wife of the marriage becomes no longer morally bound to the marriage…she is the victim.

 

None of this is my assumptions, all of what I’ve said was based on the principle of why God divorced Israel and what constitutes the conduct of a Christian who refuses to take accountability and repent.

 

It is about high time the church draws the line in the sand and takes the side of the victim on this. To claim that the Bible does not permit divorce on the reason of physical abuse takes the side not that of the victim but that of the perpetrator and offers no accountability for the abuse conducted in the marriage….that marriage becomes unholy. I refuse to believe in a God who would not be merciful or RIGHTEOUSLY justified in condemning this type of marriage. Lucky for us we have a God who is Merciful and RIGHTEOUS.

 

If there is an unbeliever involved and they leave (not if the believer leaves!), then the believer is not bound anymore to that unbeliever.

 

 

Again the question must be put forward to you….what's the difference between the unbeliever in Matthew 18: 15-17 & 1 Timothy 5:8 to that of an unbeliever 1 Corinthians 7:15?

 

 

 

The two scriptures you mentioned do not apply to marriages, because in trying to apply this here, you just made the point for divorce for any reason. If you want to make the point for Matt 18 then you can pretty much deem anybody an unbeliever for anything and therefore have restored the condition again we had under Moses and totally disregard what Jesus is saying (or Paul).

Then anyone could be divorcing anybody for any sin or fault they find in them. That is not in principle with known scripture at hand in this matter.

Paul talks about an unbeliever who does not have a covenant with Christ. Otherwise we would make ourselves God to judge a person and decide if they are saved or not, when indeed they are, but just have lost their way or entangled or bound by the enemy or just dealing with a sin issue and need to repent (like pretty much all of us in one way or another).e.g. one could divorce their wife because she sometimes lies or is jealous too much or just too nagging (imagine that). Further it's the unbeliever that has to leave for good and it also does not automatically mean to the one being left this way that they are free to remarry. That needs to be investigated further.

 

Timothy mentioned someone who does not support his family, and does not in any way or form mention for a wife to leave a husband over that, now doesn't he? In fact he is talking about widows and their families are behaving like unbelievers if they will not even provide for their mother or sister, etc.. - again even though it is definitely not the optimal situation in any case, you cannot make the direct comparison. There are rules that deal with other believers and unbelievers, that do not apply to marriages where two are one!

Jeremiah just talks about Israel committing adultery - here it's spiritual...

 

 

[Warrior777]

Sorry guys, I am trying to read some of your answers and still want to get back to some of you, but we had a death today in our immediate family and I am just having a hard time concentrating here right now. I will come back to this thread at a later time, maybe a few days, and will try to weed my way through all of this. Please keep responding, especially if you see anything else that maybe we missed (mostly in regards to the remarriage issue itself), but make sure it follows and is in line with all scripture and principle of interpretation. Thanks, God bless...

[faith pleases God]

Is sexual abuse a reason for divorce? If denied sex and abused in this way, should we divorce? this could also be considered mental, emotional, and spiritual abuse. Our bodies are not our own. Is this abuse a cause for divorce?

[another_poster]

 

 

The two scriptures you mentioned do not apply to marriages, because in trying to apply this here, you just made the point for divorce for any reason. If you want to make the point for Matt 18 then you can pretty much deem anybody an unbeliever for anything and therefore have restored the condition again we had under Moses and totally disregard what Jesus is saying (or Paul).

Only if you choose to ignore scripture. I don't agree with everything InChrist has said. I have said that I am not convinced by what he said. However at no point in time did he ever say this was the situation. That is your choice to read that into what has been said. He never said it was for a one off sin. He never said it was for a person who sins frequently but repents. You are putting words into his mouth.

[another_poster]

Where did Paul say Jesus didn't know what He was talking about?

 

 

In the passage being discussed in 1 corinthians. Since Jesus words according to you made it abundantly clear adultery was the only reason and there is no other then that just does not fit with what Paul says. Either Jesus was right when he said adultery is the only reason and Paul is wrong OR Jesus was wrong and Paul is right or the most logical and likely it isn't as clear cut as people like to think it is.

 

 

 

Is sexual abuse a reason for divorce? If denied sex and abused in this way, should we divorce? this could also be considered mental, emotional, and spiritual abuse. Our bodies are not our own. Is this abuse a cause for divorce?

If it is continuous denial with no justifiable reason then at the very least it could be considered tempting your partner to sin or causing them to stumble. 

 

by justifiable reason I mean things like ill health or injury or away or things like that.