Tiger Eye Posted September 22, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/31/1950 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Is divorce a greater issue than the love of God? Is divorce a greater issue than the forgiveness of God? Is divorce a greater issue than showing love for one another? I've made 3 posts that have been ignored, yet you still are looking for answers. Try answering my questions. Then maybe you'll find some answers. Sorry Tiger who was this post addressed to? Just a thought but if you don't quote someone or at least put a name on your post we don't know who you are speaking or asking questions too.. God bless, GE Hi Golden eagle, my original 3 posts were addressed to everyone in general, just giving a different viewpoint than what was previously said. I guess no one found them of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted September 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 22, 2014 Is divorce a greater issue than the love of God? Is divorce a greater issue than the forgiveness of God? Is divorce a greater issue than showing love for one another? I've made 3 posts that have been ignored, yet you still are looking for answers. Try answering my questions. Then maybe you'll find some answers. Sorry Tiger who was this post addressed to? Just a thought but if you don't quote someone or at least put a name on your post we don't know who you are speaking or asking questions too.. God bless, GE Hi Golden eagle, my original 3 posts were addressed to everyone in general, just giving a different viewpoint than what was previously said. I guess no one found them of interest. I'll answer your three questions, but perhaps not in the way you like. Is divorce a greater issue than the love of God? Murder isn't a greater issue than the love of God, and neither is any other sin. God loves all people, so much that He gave His only begotten son. That doesn't mean the everyone will be saved. Is divorce a greater issue than the forgiveness of God? God's forgiveness comes at a price, His Son. And in order to receive that forgiveness, a person must believe on the Son. Divorce, except for certain situations, is a sin. Forgiveness does not mean divorce is any less of a sin. Perhaps the biggest sin would be to presume on God's forgiveness and proceed with the sin of divorce. That would be a presumptuous sin. Is divorce a greater issue than showing love for one another? Again, two different issues. I can love a person who is divorced, but that doesn't mean their divorce was not a sin. Even worse, so many divorces are done to the former spouses who loved their divorcing spouse, deeply hurting them. Divorce is not love for one another. I do believe that a person who was divorced prior to accepting Jesus, is saved, and since their sins are wiped away by Jesus, they are free to remarry. I believe there are other situations in scripture which makes divorce permissable as well as re-marriage. But, I do believe divorce is generally not loving, and there are situations when a Christian gets a divorce which is a presumtuous sin and grave indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Eye Posted September 22, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/31/1950 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Is divorce a greater issue than the love of God? Is divorce a greater issue than the forgiveness of God? Is divorce a greater issue than showing love for one another? I've made 3 posts that have been ignored, yet you still are looking for answers. Try answering my questions. Then maybe you'll find some answers. Sorry Tiger who was this post addressed to? Just a thought but if you don't quote someone or at least put a name on your post we don't know who you are speaking or asking questions too.. God bless, GE Hi Golden eagle, my original 3 posts were addressed to everyone in general, just giving a different viewpoint than what was previously said. I guess no one found them of interest. I'll answer your three questions, but perhaps not in the way you like. Is divorce a greater issue than the love of God? Murder isn't a greater issue than the love of God, and neither is any other sin. God loves all people, so much that He gave His only begotten son. That doesn't mean the everyone will be saved. Is divorce a greater issue than the forgiveness of God? God's forgiveness comes at a price, His Son. And in order to receive that forgiveness, a person must believe on the Son. Divorce, except for certain situations, is a sin. Forgiveness does not mean divorce is any less of a sin. Perhaps the biggest sin would be to presume on God's forgiveness and proceed with the sin of divorce. That would be a presumptuous sin. Is divorce a greater issue than showing love for one another? Again, two different issues. I can love a person who is divorced, but that doesn't mean their divorce was not a sin. Even worse, so many divorces are done to the former spouses who loved their divorcing spouse, deeply hurting them. Divorce is not love for one another. I do believe that a person who was divorced prior to accepting Jesus, is saved, and since their sins are wiped away by Jesus, they are free to remarry. I believe there are other situations in scripture which makes divorce permissable as well as re-marriage. But, I do believe divorce is generally not loving, and there are situations when a Christian gets a divorce which is a presumtuous sin and grave indeed. Hello Qnts, thank you for your reply. Can I ask you a question? What does your user name mean? I am curious. Also, I said some things and asked some questions in post #59. I would love to hear your response to it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 23, 2014 @faith pleases God I suggest considering that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Consider listening to these two songs: Are you pointing a finger or holding out a hand? And... 1 Cor. 13:1-3 13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things How to balance speaking truth without compromise but speaking truth in love in this (and in all) situation? This is something I struggle with too... God Bless. GE I didn't know I was talking to someone other than the original poster and whoever responded to me. It's weird to me to judge how much or little someone cares over a couple of posts. I'm trying to be concise. But just curious, what is better? Someone who loves someone dearly very much and just wants them to be happy in the life, but gives them advice that leads them to Hell? Or someone who appears dry and stern, but gives them holy guidance causing one to turn away from sin that leads them to everlasting life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'm not conjuring up reasons for divorce and remarriage. Are you reading what I'm writing? I didn't ask if abuse was grounds for remarriage. I asked if abuse was grounds for separation. So I will ask again. Is abuse grounds for separation? So I understand what you are saying regarding masters and slaves... If a husband consistently abuses his wife she is to remain living with him? God bless, GE If this is occurring then the husband should be in jail, right? In today's society it is not hard to get a domestic assault charge and conviction. Is it? And sure, separation can be an option. Although specifics matter, and the wife is suppose to be submissive...not defiant. However, we have laws that protect her from physical harm. So I do not see a separation as necessary, if it is, then once again he would be in jail. So I understand your position you're saying basically while separation is an option it is not necessary. You're saying the options are either A) jail or B) live with him. You're saying a wife should be submissive and not defiant to her husband. Two more questions if I may: 1. What about grace, mercy, compassion, love, forgiveness to an abuser who is truly repentant? Do you not believe in those? 2. Does a husband own his wife more than a wife owns her husband? Curious. God bless, GE I love people GE. Very Much!! And I love marriage! I believe in repentance, grace, mercy, love, compassion,and forgiveness!! Very much! These are the reasons against divorce. I also believe in miracles, and the power of God and prayer!! For me, ownership is a weird way to look at it. But I would say they each own each other 100%. I think using abuse as an out is a slippery slope and almost anything can be abuse to someone. And almost everyone who divorces uses that justification. I just don't see it permissible in scripture. In many ways divorce is the murdering of a family. Many use the excuse God doesn't want me to live like this, I deserve better, etc. and use abuse (mental, emotional, physical, spiritual) as a justification. Divorce is a wicked, wicked thing and should be hated! Are we to hate what God hates? If we are and I stand on scripture, why do you dismiss me as uncaring or unloving? I am answering a question of doctrine in general. God Bless you also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 First of all thanks to everyone who took the time to answer and post in this thread. I was away for 2 days and this really exploded with posts, lot to read. One thing I want to address after reading all the posts is, that there should be somewhat of a rule that applies to all circumstances of divorce and remarriage. If there is not the exception clause of adultery in play there should not be a remarriage especially for the one that did the divorcing for another reason, no matter what the situations are. We cannot condone one to remarry and forbid another unless it all applies to the same rule. The one Jesus gave, when he said that divorce is only permissible and remarriage possible without being in sin, because adultery has been committed by the other spouse. It seems that some people are in favor of a divorced spouse remarrying, who is divorced for different reasons other than adultery. Some of you tend to put other reasons for divorce into account, but scripture answers that pretty clearly, at least the part that we have which is clear about this issue, the issue of divorce. As much as they seem valid reasons, they are not biblical reasons for divorce though. I agree with the poster - "Faith pleases God" . I think he answered it pretty much to the point. Our sense for justice wants to put all these reasons in there why a covenant should be broken and maybe in our eyes that is a breakable offense, but not in God's will. He clearly stated His will here and no matter who says what about it (people who interpret it differently), in context AND at face value it's written black (or red) on white and pretty much clear cut. If God says clearly "A" we can't say, well He might as well mean "B" also and "C" would be justified too... Another point someone brought up was, that the divorce is not really valid in God's eyes unless there was adultery. Now that somewhat agrees with the scripture in 1 Corinthians 7:11 (NKJV): But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife I already talked about that in one of my posts, which to me seems like a logical solution to the problem in context with scripture (at least the part that is known) God wants reconciliation, so after the divorce both partners should stay single, if adultery is not the reason, but even then, there should be an opportunity for reconciliation. If now one marries someone else, that person commits adultery. Now the left behind spouse (the one being divorced) has no more opportunity to be reconciled to their first spouse. If they are the one that has been divorced by their spouse (especially if they didn't want the divorce in the first place), they now should be free to remarry, since their spouse has now officially committed adultery and forever closed the door of reconciliation. The Bible says that one is not to remarry an ex-wife that had remarried another man in Deut. 24:2-4 (again - for some reason there is no vice versa rule written). There would be now no more reason for that spouse to have to stay single and thus the exception rule for adultery also would apply. Though I believe if the spouse that did the divorcing in the first place marries, even after the other one had remarried already first and not reconciled (which then would be adultery in that case for the one being divorced), then this would be adultery too, because then the rule would apply again: Mark 10:11-12 So He said to them,“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” This is the part that is not quite clear from scripture, but it somewhat makes sense this way. Anybody that has maybe some background info about that? Even any extra-biblical, historical accounts from Christian writers during that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 23, 2014 faith pleases God...in response to your comments on your post 35 I am truly sorry for your friend and her experiences. There are many denominations and cults. For me this is a simple subject. It is being made complicated by...saying what Catholics or other Christians think..or what really is submission?... and shouldn't all Christians submit to one another. Scripture is all that matters. Not what random denominations think. What constitutes the breaking of the marriage covenant? What were your vows? Is the covenant meant to be permanent? Of course. Death and adultery break this covenant. Not abuse. Matthew 19:9 9 Now what I say to you is that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery!” If this scripture is not self explanatory, we will not get very far in discussion. Divorce is permitted under certain conditions. Re-doing it with someone else isn't unless stated above, it is ADULTERY and the one who marries the divorced one is also living in adultery. In my opinion, this is not difficult to understand or obey. Marriage does have a hierarchy and submission is involved. I said abuse was not a reason to divorce, simple as that. I never said this woman was my friend and she was not in fact my friend...a minor detail perhaps, but it seems you are not addressing what I actually write I disagree saying things are being made complicated by mentionning what Catholics observe....you also might take note that Protestant Christians do not all agree on your interpretation either nor do they view this issue as simple. Why would you just dismiss everyone else? Scripture is all that matters. Not what random denominations think. Actually, relationship with God matters...not just words on a page because that is all they are if we forget that the Spirit of God gives life to those words. I have no idea what you mean by 'random denominations' but please be aware it sounds quite dismissive...there are many denoms within Christianity...right? What constitutes the breaking of the marriage covenant? What were your vows? Is the covenant meant to be permanent? Of course. Death and adultery break this covenant. Not abuse I disagree. Abuse breaks the covenant...even the law of the land will tell you that. I am not talking about marriages outside of those who claim to be Christian There are more than physical forms of abuse...mental and emotional abuse effectively breaks down a person's will and reduces them to far less than who they are in the eyes of God. It might do well to remember that neither gender is a favorite in the eyes of God. Neither has permission to cause the other to stumble and fall and cry out "Where are you God?" As far as discussion goes, you have glossed over questions I have asked ...which I asked for the purpose of discussion. It seems at this point, to me, that you prefer to tell others how it is rather then discuss or address other things brought up. Marriage is not about words. I do not believe God shows favoritism. But He is a God of order. For example, Is the wife the head of the husband? Is the husband the head of the wife? Are both the heads? or neither? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2014 Good morning everyone. It seems that some of us are living in different time zones. I want to thank those who have taken the time to answer my posts. OneLight, I want to apologize for my misuse of Scripture. If I had read it first, I would not have used it. Mea culpa, mea culpa. Since I have so much to answer, I would like to do a brief on this thread as I see it. Two Christian people get divorced, then they meet and want to get married to each other. Some say no, it is a sin against God. If they marry, they will continue to be in sin. If they never repent of this marriage and "unmarry" each other, then they will not spend all eternity with God. The alternative? They will go to hell for all eternity. So to "unmarry" each other, they need to go through another divorce in order to be right with God. Does all this make sense? I'm reading in this thread what I am saying here. My conclusion? If these people marry and stay married, they can never be right with God. They can no longer have a personal relationship with God. They have become permanently separated from God. They will go to hell. Since they were Christians in the first place, they have lost their salvation. Am I missing something here? Or is this how Jesus calls the shots? In answer to your post to me. Qnts stands for Quench Not the Spirit. The 2 is simply because my husband used Qnts also so I needed to add a number. I have seen various things occur which has influenced my view of things, so let me tell you of a couple of true stories. I knew a guy thru work, who was a Christian and a part of what I consider a legalistic church with very controlling leadership. This guy was on his third marriage, and the church taught that he was potentially committing adultery. He and his third wife were happily married with three young children. They leaders talked to him about his previous marriages and found that his first wife had been previously married. His second wife had also been previously married as had his third. So, his three marriages were all to women who had divorced before marrying him. The church concluded that he had been committing adultery to all three women since they had all been married before, and since none of his marriages were proper per scripture, he had never really been married but had been committing adultery. The ordered him to divorce his present wife and because he had never been lawfully married before God, he was free to marry, as long as it was the womans first marriage. His wife had to remain single in hopes that her first husband would return to her. It took them some time as they were happily married with children, but they did divorce. I looked at the situation and thought that something was terribly wrong as the church broke up a happy marriage and separated the mother and father of children. I also knew a guy who was a pastor. He was in my view somewhat controlling in his church. In hindsight I realized that he was going thru a mid-life crisis. The pastor was married with 3 older children (over 18). In the church was a young man and wife with 7 children. The wife started to visit the pastor and do some flirting. That ended up being an affair. The woman was causing some issues in the church, and the pastor always defended her. The affair continued for almost 2 years, when the pastors wife came home from work early one day and caught the pastor and woman in bed. In response, the pastor started to be counseled by an elder in a process of restoration, but in the end, he stated that the woman was his soul mate, and he would get a divorce and marry the woman. When asked about his eternal state, he said he was going to marry her, and in the future, he would ask for God's forgiveness and God would forgive him, restoring his salvation. The pastor walked out of the church, saying he quit. The pastor and wife did divorce and the woman and husband divorced. The pastor and woman got married. The man raised his 7 kids, and the former pastors wife changed churches. In my view, the first situation was tragic and wrong. The man who had married 3 times was not a believer for all three marriages. The third wife was not a believer before her first divorce and second marriage to the man. If Jesus died for all of our sins, including adultery and murder, I believe that Jesus died for the sin of divorce. When these people were saved, they were forgiven for their sins. Divorce included. The church leadership pushing their divorce was actually committing a sin. That the man, and third wife divorced was a sin, but not as heinous as they thought they were being obedient to God based on the teaching they had received, but it was a sin to divorce. I believe their marriage was before God. The second situation is a presumtous sin, as the Pastor, knowing his actions to be a sin still continued. And not just continued but presumed a future forgiveness when he decided to ask for forgiveness from God. His act of presumption assumed that once married, he would not have to divorce his second marriage of adultery. I do not believe this pastor can possibly remain married to his tart and truly repent, as he already stated he would do it to regain salvation, and not out of any true repentence. I will add one more, which is my own story. I was married to a man who was the equivalent to a pastor of another religion which did not believe in Jesus. I read a NT, and decided that Jesus is the Messiah and Lord. Of course my new belief created problems with my husband, his job, and the congregation. I was given a choice. Renounce Jesus and remain married, or get a divorce. I did not renounce Jesus, and my non-believing husband wanted a divorce. I believe that is one of the conditions in scripture which allows the unbelieving spouse to leave and me to re-marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2014 I wish people would fight for their families. Follow the scriptures not your heart. Our hearts can deceive us. Obey the Lord. This should be heeded above all else. We should not compromise our faith because we do not want to continue. Above all else, rather than bring condemnation I hope to talk someone out of divorce because they are weary and want to throw in the towel and have a redo. The world encourages this action, will, and behavior. Follow scripture above all else is your aim? Great! So when scripture says to speak the truth in love how have you demonstrated that here? To be honest I can not see how you have done that. By all means try and talk a person out of divorce if you can but that statement also does not reflect reality. Sometimes it just is not an option. The choice is not always with the individual. One can fight for their family but if the other person says don't care then there is nothing that can be done. If this is occurring then the husband should be in jail, right? In today's society it is not hard to get a domestic assault charge and conviction. Is it? And sure, separation can be an option. Although specifics matter, and the wife is suppose to be submissive...not defiant. However, we have laws that protect her from physical harm. So I do not see a separation as necessary, if it is, then once again he would be in jail. The old life is simple philosophy. There are many other factors you have not addressed here in regards to domestic violence. It really is not as simple as you think and that is all before one even gets to court! and the husband is supposed to be submissive as well as per biblical instruction and also put his wife's desires above his own. But just curious, what is better? Someone who loves someone dearly very much and just wants them to be happy in the life, but gives them advice that leads them to Hell? Or someone who appears dry and stern, but gives them holy guidance causing one to turn away from sin that leads them to everlasting life? This is not actually a valid question because they are not the only two options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted September 23, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2014 If someone came to me, and they said they were being physically abused, and this was an on going thing, my advise would be to separate. I am just saying that this is my advise, not based on scripture, but on my personal feelings in the matter. If they decide to divorce, and re-marry down the road, they are doing that with no Biblical clearance to do so. I wouldn't condemn anyone in that situation, but neither can I assume God is ok with it. @ Another Poster, even if a question was asked and answered, the answer won't change down the road. If the disciples ask Jesus about divorce, yes he is answering them, but the answer wouldn't change if I asked him the exact same thing. That same principle applies everywhere. Yeah I get that the answer doesn't change but you seem to have misunderstood what I said. If an answer is given to a specific question then the answer is only the answer for that specific question not for a different question. Also I would have thought you would have had a view or some input on the put away vs divorce discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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