Would it be easier to prove the existence of Satan?

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

I understand. But, God isn't worried about what you believe. He loves you, and it is hard to imagine such a love as this. Because the world is not filled with love, but rather a lot of bad stuff. It is filled with beauty too, but God's love trumps anything this world can offer. 

is that true that God is not worried about what I believe? Sounds like good news for people like me

 

I think you'd be capitalizing on a technicality of her sentiment, if you took 

 

What people think ( Christian or not ), is not always perfectly communicated through typed words or even verbally. Sometimes folks have trouble expressing their thoughts and feelings. 

This is absolutely true. In a forum like this, We cannot take advantage of the enormous amounts of unintentional emotions that are usually transmitted when we communicate face to face. We did not really evolved to communicate through a computer

but in this case, I think we can settle the issue by posting the main question in a pretty unambiguous way:

- does God care or not whether we believe in Him?

Agreed. How would you answer ?

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

I'll check back, I have a Skype meeting to attend. Enjoy talking ( typing ) with you. 

[siegi91]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

i see a little problem in my case, which might not be at all applicable to all atheists. I cannot possibly believe or disbelieve a God because of the heart. The moment my heart takes over, is the moment I am double skeptic of what it tells me. I cannot help but feel a natural predisposition or instinct to default to belief in something my heart likes. A predisposition that I must compensate via other means, in order to avoid an unsubstantiated bias toward certain claims.

If I will ever believe in a God, that will only happen via a process of rational analysis, for I beleve the heart is quite unreliable when it comes to determine the existence of objective ontological realities. 

Yet you said "i am not sure I understand the concept of sin, yet. But I bet it is not a sin if you say something false, if in your heart you believe it is true."

Excellent. I like you. 

So, how do I get out of this corner? I would say that what your heart tells you is indeed unreliable, and yet, you are stll not a liar if you hold it true. 

I don't think you're in a corner, but if now we are speaking of relative truth vs. fact ( and / or ) one's definition of a lie.

I guess the question is, can someone believe something that is not truth, espouse that belief, and not espouse a lie ?

to be honest with you, I like corners. Getting out of them or changing my mind to escape is always enriching. How boring would that be if I were absolutely certain about everything!

And to answer your question...no. She/he is not a liar. I expect that many if not all of my beliefs or knowledge is not true. Newton thought that his theory of gravitation was correct. It was not. That did not make him a liar.

i posit we are liars only when we believe something is not true, but we say it is. So, we can be liars while saying things, that can be ultimately true, if we believe they are false.

 

[enoob57]

God has never been in the need of proving Himself... He simply 'IS'  The Creator of all things and all will know in the time ordained by Him! Love, Steven

[*Deidre*]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

I understand. But, God isn't worried about what you believe. He loves you, and it is hard to imagine such a love as this. Because the world is not filled with love, but rather a lot of bad stuff. It is filled with beauty too, but God's love trumps anything this world can offer. 

is that true that God is not worried about what I believe? Sounds like good news for people like me

 

He would like you to believe, because that's how much He loves you. I don't know if God 'worries' in the same sense we do. lol He is God, after all. But, He wants us to live our best lives, and that honestly and truly can only be done through Him. I stopped believing that for a while, and my life was like living in a black and white movie. And since returning to faith, feeling born again, my life is now in color.

[Dakila777]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

I understand. But, God isn't worried about what you believe. He loves you, and it is hard to imagine such a love as this. Because the world is not filled with love, but rather a lot of bad stuff. It is filled with beauty too, but God's love trumps anything this world can offer. 

is that true that God is not worried about what I believe? Sounds like good news for people like me

 

God cares about what you believe. If he did not, then he would not have sacrificed his Son's life to save yours.

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,  for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.  This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,  who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,  who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." (I Timothy 2:1-6 ESV)

[Dakila777]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

i see a little problem in my case, which might not be at all applicable to all atheists. I cannot possibly believe or disbelieve a God because of the heart. The moment my heart takes over, is the moment I am double skeptic of what it tells me. I cannot help but feel a natural predisposition or instinct to default to belief in something my heart likes. A predisposition that I must compensate via other means, in order to avoid an unsubstantiated bias toward certain claims.

If I will ever believe in a God, that will only happen via a process of rational analysis, for I beleve the heart is quite unreliable when it comes to determine the existence of objective ontological realities. 

What if God reveals himself to you? Would that be enough to make you believe?

In my opinion, no matter how good the explanations and arguments are, you cannot come to ever believe in God by rational analysis alone. For one thing, he is invisible. It takes some faith. And it takes some listening to the heart, for God speaks to the heart.

Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29 ESV)

[missmuffet]

God has never been in the need of proving Himself... He simply 'IS'  The Creator of all things and all will know in the time ordained by Him! Love, Steven

Yes,positively 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

I considered myself an atheist for two years, after I left Christianity the first time. And I'd have to say no, that 'proving' that Satan exists wouldn't really convince an atheist of good vs evil, or that God exists. Faith doesn't require evidence, but that said, when you are an atheist, you just grow indifferent to the idea of a deity existing. You aren't angry with the idea of it, you just are indifferent. That's how I felt anyway, at that time. I was led back to faith by the Holy Spirit, and i think praying for God to reveal Himself to others as He did with me, is how I think atheists may change their minds. But, they also need to change their hearts.

i see a little problem in my case, which might not be at all applicable to all atheists. I cannot possibly believe or disbelieve a God because of the heart. The moment my heart takes over, is the moment I am double skeptic of what it tells me. I cannot help but feel a natural predisposition or instinct to default to belief in something my heart likes. A predisposition that I must compensate via other means, in order to avoid an unsubstantiated bias toward certain claims.

If I will ever believe in a God, that will only happen via a process of rational analysis, for I beleve the heart is quite unreliable when it comes to determine the existence of objective ontological realities. 

Yet you said "i am not sure I understand the concept of sin, yet. But I bet it is not a sin if you say something false, if in your heart you believe it is true."

Excellent. I like you. 

So, how do I get out of this corner? I would say that what your heart tells you is indeed unreliable, and yet, you are stll not a liar if you hold it true. 

I don't think you're in a corner, but if now we are speaking of relative truth vs. fact ( and / or ) one's definition of a lie.

I guess the question is, can someone believe something that is not truth, espouse that belief, and not espouse a lie ?

to be honest with you, I like corners. Getting out of them or changing my mind to escape is always enriching. How boring would that be if I were absolutely certain about everything!

And to answer your question...no. She/he is not a liar. I expect that many if not all of my beliefs or knowledge is not true. Newton thought that his theory of gravitation was correct. It was not. That did not make him a liar.

i posit we are liars only when we believe something is not true, but we say it is. So, we can be liars while saying things, that can be ultimately true, if we believe they are false.

 

Okay, but now we come to the other side;

If someone believes that something is not true, does it change the fact ( and or circumstances / consequences ) if it IS indeed true ? 

[enoob57]

No. It would make no difference to atheists. They explain away creation and the very order of the universe through any semi feasible explanation so they would do the same with all supernatural.

 

It would depend on the Atheist. Many Atheists turn to Jesus every day.

There are two types of Atheist  - those who simply don't believe and those that don't want to believe (they have already rejected God).

Your comment would apply to the latter. The former group are merely seekers who haven't found yet.

It's nice to see a sensible comment like this one.  On the other thread they were essentially stating that all atheists are liars.   

Bonky it is not us that say this but God
Romans 1:18 (KJV)
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from
the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in
                                                       their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
We are all just little parts and pieces of all that is to be understood here YET we are puffed up thinking we know much
this is sin and prevents us from seeing the truth that is here and that is a Creator that is not subject to His creation...
Love, Steven