kroschild Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Dear kroschild: The Dictionary definitions are not accurate in my opinion. I have already posted the latin roots of the word atheism: A = without theism = belief in god/s. Atheism = without belief in god/s. Hence, those you call agnostics are atheists (my definition above) and those that you call atheists (dictionary definition) are also atheists (my definition above). They both are without beliefs in god/s. In atheist circles that I have seen, my definition is the accepted one. So, according to my definition of atheism, how does an atheist require more faith than a christian? How does no belief turn into great belief? Also, how are pagan religions and Greek and Roman mythologies modern? The definition of "pagan" religions I was using was ancient religions. Those practiced by the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc Where did the concept of limiting god-beliefs to "modern" beliefs come from? Are you discounting older beliefs just because they aren't modern? Do you think modernity equates with potential truth? Regards, UndecidedFrog <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ok...by your definition--they wouldn't. But what is an agnostic then? Because they ARE different. As to your reply Where did the concept of limiting god-beliefs to "modern" beliefs come from? Are you discounting older beliefs just because they aren't modern? Do you think modernity equates with potential truth? What??? I clearly said I have studied ancient religions....I first told you I have not (obviously) studied all of these religions (containing the 10,000 gods you mention), but I do have a basic grounding in the beliefs of Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Greek and Roman mythology, Wiccan, a handful of Far Eastern religions (Buddaism, Confuscious, etc), and several pagan religions (other than Wiccan). Then I clarified "pagan religion" as Those practiced by the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc. I have studied these older religions! I think you misunderstood me. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I was never an evangelical atheist. I really don't care if others disbelieve as I do. Also, I am not utterly convinced that there is no god. I do not know if there is a god. Well, I certainly hope god (if he exists) will break into my life and make himself known to me so that I may believe. Until that time, I shall remain without beliefs in any god/s. Hi, Frog. I think He's doing just that right now, it's just that we are fumbling around trying to be used by Him for that purpose. Perhaps we are not the greatest of debaters, talkers or convincers, but I think God is right now using us to break in and help Him gain you. Whether the purpose is to bring you into salvation, or to help us refine ourselves and scrape the dross from our own lives and make us better witnesses, or both, He is working now as we type. Oh, the gift thing? It really is a matter of how you look at it. You don't really have to do anything but repent and accept. That's not really work, is it? It's really just splitting hairs on a bald man's head. I think you know inside, but yet need a little more assurance, and that's ok. It took me 34 years. But, for some reason, the Lord didn't take me before I came to that decision, and for that, I am forever grateful! It could have just as easily been the other way around, and I could be dead right now, with no hope at all. Thank you, Lord. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroschild Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 It's really just splitting hairs on a bald man's head. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *wipes away the tears* Oh wow...what an expression---but can I use it on my bald dad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Dear kroschild: ok...by your definition--they wouldn't. But what is an agnostic then? Because they ARE different. A= without gnosticism= knowledge Agnosticism = without knowledge Hence, an agnostic christian = a believer without knowledge; a gnostic christian (not the sect) = a believer with knowledge; an agnostic atheist = an unbeliever without knowledge; a gnostic atheist = an unbeliever with knowledge I have studied these older religions! I think you misunderstood me. Perhaps I did misunderstand you. But I am glad that you have studied some older religions as well. Our discussions will be more comprehensive. Dear ted, Whether the purpose is to bring you into salvation, or to help us refine ourselves and scrape the dross from our own lives and make us better witnesses, or both, He is working now as we type. That is an interesting perspective. It really is a matter of how you look at it. You don't really have to do anything but repent and accept. That's not really work, is it? Do you realize what you have said....the "anything but" makes it clear that you do have to do something. Whether it is "work" or not is irrelevant. The point is that it is still requirements, hence making it an offer, and not a gift. Is attending a 4-hour seminar of the virtues of time-sharing considered "work?" It doesn't matter if you consider it work or not. The "free vacation to FL" is an offer, and not a gift. Thanks for your input. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroschild Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 A= without gnosticism= knowledge Agnosticism = without knowledge Hence, an agnostic christian = a believer without knowledge; a gnostic christian (not the sect) = a believer with knowledge; an agnostic atheist = an unbeliever without knowledge; a gnostic atheist = an unbeliever with knowledge Um...agnostics claim that there is no way for them to make a decision about God based on the current evidence. You cannot be an "agnostic christian". The two terms contradict one another. Literal translations are not always the best way to define something--connotation is as important, if not more. On the different religions: Using your counter-argument that 1) What makes you so sure that you are worshipping the correct god? There are at least 10,000 different gods to choose from. So the chances that you are worshipping the correct one is 1 out of 10,000. And if you happen to worship the incorrect one, you end up in the same place as a non-worshipper of the real one. it seems that Wiccans would possibly have the closest chance. They believe that all religions use different names for the same diety, and that the diety (dieties, techincally--kind of a yin and yang thing--one male, one female but both the same) names they call their god by determines which aspect of their deity they are addressing (ie if they call upon their deity at one time by the name "Aphrodite", then they are addressing the female, love-centered side of the deity. If they call upon their deity at another time by the name "Mars", then they are calling upon a male, retribution-centered side of the deity.) Essentially, Wiccans believe that all gods are different names for the same deity--they embrace all gods. The only problem with this, is that if they are wrong, and there are true gods and false gods, embracing all of them is a moot point. Just thought I'd start us off with one. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroschild Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 Oh, and on the "works or not" argument---does the word semantics mean anything to you? KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted January 16, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2005 Dear kroschild: This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Oh, and on the "works or not" argument---does the word semantics mean anything to you? Is this meant as a double entendre? Are you referring to the internal christian argument of "works alone" vs. "belief alone" as salvation requirements? My previous posting has nothing to do with that. My point was that whether or not you consider the requirements of salvation work is irrelevant. The fact that salvation does indeed have requirements makes it an offer rather than a gift. You cannot be an "agnostic christian". The two terms contradict one another. So you claim that all christians have knowledge that their god exists? I thought you said: I disagree with what you claim most Christians have told you too--you cannot "know" that there is a God...if you could, then faith would be a moot point. Hmm, what is your position? I am now confused. Essentially, Wiccans believe that all gods are different names for the same deity--they embrace all gods. I think you may be confusing Wicca with Bahai. I thought it was Bahaism that supports a unifying belief of all gods and all beliefs. Wicca does have beliefs of a goddess and a god. As far as I know Wiccans do not worship Aphrodite (Greek) or Mars (Roman). Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted January 17, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hi Frog. You said... Everything has been done? There is nothing required for me to do to obtain christian salvation? Are you telling me that I don't have to do the following to obtain salvation: 1) Believe Jesus christ is lord, saviour and god 2) Repent my sins If I don't have to do the above items, then I retract my statement that salvation is an offer, and I am willing to say that it is indeed a free gift. However, if you tell me that I am indeed required to do at least the above 2 items, then I stand by my original position that it is an offer, and not a gift. I think you are perfectly aware of what is being said and as Ted has pointed out you are splitting hairs to the nth degree...when it says in Romans... Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ...Gift,offer call it what you like the point is that the price has been paid in full. Botz... I was also an evangelical atheist of sorts before I was converted..utterly convinced of the non-existence of G-d...it was an immense surprise when He broke into my life....may you too get the surprise of your life. Frog... I was never an evangelical atheist. I really don't care if others disbelieve as I do. . I never said you were...it is obvious that you aren't! Also, I am not utterly convinced that there is no god. I do not know if there is a god. Well, I certainly hope god (if he exists) will break into my life and make himself known to me so that I may believe. Until that time, I shall remain without beliefs in any god/ Well mate...keep seeking then. Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted January 17, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2005 Well, I certainly hope god (if he exists) will break into my life and make himself known to me He already is, Frog. Step outside for a moment. Is it snowing? Check out the awe of that snowflake. Do you see the trees? A complex system of roots, buds, leaves, sap........only to go dormant in the winter and spring back to life in the Spring. Does a neighbor cat cross your path? Another complex life system. See the stars? Aren't they awesome? Where did they come from? If two atoms collided to cause a "big bang" - where did the two atoms come from?? All it takes to hear God making himself known to you is too look around, Frog. I don't mean to sound simplistic or Pollyanna, but sometimes what we are looking for is right under our nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted January 17, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2005 This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. Dear Botz: I think you are perfectly aware of what is being said and as Ted has pointed out you are splitting hairs to the nth degree. I do not think I'm splitting hairs. There is a difference between what is considered a gift and what is considered an offer. That is my point. Unfortunately many do not understand that. ...Gift,offer call it what you like the point is that the price has been paid in full. It is an offer that requires the receiver from performing some obligations to receive what is offered. Some may consider those obligations part of the price to be yet paid. Well mate...keep seeking then. Yes, I will keep seeking. However, I will seek with my eyes wide open and my faculties in full force. Dear WIP: It's not snowing where I am. I do not know what you mean by the awe of a snowflake. It is crystalized water. I see trees, I understand its component parts and their functions. I also understand the parts of a cat. I see the stars in the sky. I guess you can call them awesome from the point of view that we cannot reach any of them yet. Where did they come from? I have no idea. But, given that I don't know, should I assume god must have done it? Sorry, but I don't think that way. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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