NY man killed by policeman

[ayin jade]

 

 

I wasn't really debating about that, I was remarking that I don't see how the protests are going to be stopped in any way. They've more or less hit the point where it's simply going to continue.

 

They are continuing because of people like sharpton who incite things that give sharpton and his ilk power. 

 

 

Al Sharpton has little to nothing to do with most of these protests.  Most people protesting would be hard pressed to site the last time they have even heard Al Sharpton speak.  These protests are occurring because the masses want to live in a world where black lives are valued and not dismissed, who's lives are put on trial when they are killed by a white person, and are considered guilty until proven innocent.

 

 

Then they need to start cleaning up themselves to start with. The majority of crimes are black on black. Drugs and gangs are rampant. Single parents raising kids. They should work on those problems if they want their lives valued and not dismissed. They should work on raising themselves out of the oppressive culture they live in. It is possible to do. My hubby and his siblings got out of the oppressive culture they were in, one in which the average age of death is far lower than the rest of the us, where alcoholism and unemployment are far higher than elsewhere in the us. It can be done. It cant be done with rioting vandalism and destruction.

[Guest LadyC]

they don't want the 'victim's' lives put on trial after they've been killed? well heck, then maybe the "victim" shouldn't have been in the act of committing a crime when they got killed. ya know, once their life has ended, they can't face a trial for their crimes. instead, the cop who shot them has to stand trial... either before a grand jury or a regular judge and jury. when that cop gets put on trial, the actions that preceded it (i.e. the crime being committed by the criminal in the moments before his death) HAVE TO BECOME part of that trial. you can't have it both ways. if you truly want justice, then the evidence has to be heard. and when the cop has been cleared, justice HAS been served. like it or not, that's how it is. 

 

it's like half the world only wants justice for who they want it for. they believe in 'innocent until proven guilty' when it comes to the criminal, but they want only vengeance against a cop who has been proven NOT guilty. it's a little one sided don't ya think?

 

the battle cry is 'black lives matter'. YES! black lives DO matter! unfortunately, statistics bear out that black lives matter least to other black lives. white people in general, including white cops, are NOT the ones slaughtering black people. cops are doing their job. and sometimes in the course of their job, criminals die. black, white, blue, green or purple, it makes no difference what color the skin on their bones is.

[Guest shiloh357]

Plenty of the protesters have jobs as well. They may be students. Let's look up what protest means in the dictionary.

 

"an expression or declaration of objection, disapproval, or dissent, often in opposition to something a person is powerless to prevent or avoid:"

 

A protester is simply someone who does that. That is what the protesters are doing.

 

Their protests would be mean something and some value if they had a genuine cause to protest.   In the Michael Brown case their "protests"  are based on a false narrative;  they are based on false eye-witness testimony that Michael Brown was viciously shot in the back with his hands up in the air.  That is the basis for the silly "hands up, don't shoot" chant.   Dorian Johnson (who helped Brown rob and assault the owner of Ferguson Market and Liquor) claimed that Brown was surrendering to the police with his hands in the air when he was shot in the back.   That has been proven false by multiple eye-witness testimony by African Americans who had to testify secretly in the Grand Jury for fear of their lives AND it was confirmed by the multiple autopsy reports including the federal autopsy.

 

So what are they protesting?  The evidence doesn't support that their was a racial component in the actions of Darren Wilson.  The evidence does not support excessive force by Wilson.  The evidence doesn't support the claims that Brown's hands were in the air that he was shot in the back while trying to surrender to police.

 

So, these people who are out on the street are protesting against something that never happened they are speaking out against an injustice that never occurred.  They are maintaining a false narrative of events without evidence and without just cause.  They continue to promote a lie.   The protests in the Brown case are invalid and meaningless since Wilson didn't commit a hate crime or use excessive force.

 

They want Wilson to be punished out of revenge for Brown's death and not out of any sincere desire for justice.  They simply want blood at any cost, even if Wilson is innocent, they want him presumed guilty.    So I have no respect for them or their cause.

 

The same holds true for the Garner case.  There is no racial component in that case either and there was no excessive force used.  The tactics used on Garner are used by police all over the US.  The death was Garner was an unintended consequence.  It was not the intention of the police to kill him.   It would not have killed an ordinary person who was not asthmatic and suffering from numerous health issues like Garner was.  The policeman was using a tactic that was banned by the NYC and should be held accountable for that, but he did not murder Garner and did not use excessive force as defined by law.   If Garner had not resisted arrest, he would still be alive today.

 

These protests ignore the fact that police save African American lives all of the time. Most of the time, the police have had a favorable relationship with the African American community.  They have prevented numerous cases of black on black crime.  It is the criminal element in the black community, it is those who run afoul of the law that try to deflect attention from their self-destructive behavior by claiming that they are being discriminated against by police on the basis of race that fuel these kinds of "protests."

 

They are expressing dissent. Nothing there says anything about how they are supposed to do it.

 

Yeah and so commonsense goes out the window, right??   Burning down buildings, looting, running over policemen in your car and then having the crowd cheer and call for the driver to do it again, doesn't constitute expressing dissent.   Blocking intersections when ambulances need  to get through to save a life does not constitute an expression of dissent.   Blocking an intersection and keeping people from going to work and potentially getting people fired does not constitute an expression of dissent.   Keeping people from being able to get to their children who are waiting for them at school does not constitute an expression of dissent.

 

Expressing dissent lawfully is not something that should have to be spelled out, but evidently in this case, it does.   What they are doing is simply making life hard for people who have nothing to do with what happened in Ferguson.  They simply placing undue hardship on average Americans and frankly, they don't deserve respect from anyone.

 

 

 

They may hold up those two cases, but it's far from being about that. They are protesting, for example, that the municipality of Ferguson gets 25% of all it's income from tickets, in a poor area. When people are too poor and get ticket after ticket, they are issued warrants for their arrest. When they are arrested, that affects their ability to get a job in an already tough job market. I can't think of a city in Canada that does that. You clearly don't know much about why they are protesting if you think it's just about a neurotic obsession over two cases.

 

And so the assumption is that the police are just ticketing them for no reason?   Perhaps if they obeyed the law they would not get tickets.  Now that's a novel idea, isn't it??

 

The reason they get warrants for their arrest is that they don't show up to court like they told to, or they don't pay their tickets.  That's not true just in Ferguson, it happens in cities all over in the US and in every income bracket.  If you don't pay your fines, you don't show up to court, you get arrested.  It is crime to not pay your fines.  If you are too poor to pay fines, then perhaps it would be wise not to do things that get you ticketed in the first place.  People who are law abiding citizens, don't get tickets.   That you are too poor to pay your fines is irrelevant.  You break the law, there are consequences. 

 

I hate paying fines too.  I really can't afford to pay fines on my income.  I don't like the idea of going to jail, either. So I obey the speed limits. I obey traffic laws.  I don't rob convenience stores.  I don't steal other people's things.  I don't assault police officers.  I don't do things that get me ticketed or hauled off to jail.  I do my job, clock out, go home and mind my own business. 

 

And yeah, if I get arrested and go to jail, I will lose my job and it will make it harder for me to find a new job.  But actions have consequences and when you break the law, you bring all kinds of bad things on yourself, especially in a tough job market where there are many, many people who competing for jobs and those who have rap sheets with multiple arrests and have a documented history of infractions will not be as able to find a job as a law abiding citizen will.   That is a good reason for not being able to find a job.  But, they brought that on themselves.   That's why, again, their protests have no meaning, no validity.  They want to misbehave with having to be accountable for it, and when they undergo the consequences of their own misbehavior and self-destructive lifestyle, they want to blame everyone else but themselves, and they will claim it's about race or whatever.   They are simply getting  exactly what they deserve.

 

So this notion that they are protesting some kind of unfair treatment has no legitimate or credible platform on which to rest.  It is pure nonsense.

 

What proof do you have that they are in the minority?

 

I don't claim to have proof of anything.  What I do notics is that there have been complaints registered by whites AND blacks about these people in the streets because they are impeding people from getting to work.  They are hurting people of all races who have NOTHING to do with the issues these people have such a neurotic obsession over.

 

I offer as evidence the very thing YOU claim is evidence that the protesters enjoy more support.  The reason we don't see more support openly isn't because Americans are afraid to speak out; it is because they have jobs and lives.  They have children to raise and they have to get to work and make a living. They have to take their kids to school, to basketball and cheer-leading practice.  They have doctors appointments and housework and PTA meetings and other things to do and frankly, these protests are about nothing.  Most Americans, I would argue accept the Grand Jury's decision and have moved on.

 

It's only these rioters and their Amen corner in the Far Left who still care about this and continue to fan the flames of a nonexistent issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I wasn't really debating about that, I was remarking that I don't see how the protests are going to be stopped in any way. They've more or less hit the point where it's simply going to continue.

 

They are continuing because of people like sharpton who incite things that give sharpton and his ilk power. 

 

 

Al Sharpton has little to nothing to do with most of these protests. 

 

Al Sharpton is the one fanning the flames and keeping these protests alive.  This is his money tree.

 

Most people protesting would be hard pressed to site the last time they have even heard Al Sharpton speak.  These protests are occurring because the masses want to live in a world where black lives are valued and not dismissed, who's lives are put on trial when they are killed by a white person, and are considered guilty until proven innocent.

 

That's interesting because they live in a world where the majority of whites in this country elected a black president, where whites in this country have made it possible for Oprah Winfrey to be the richest woman in the United States.  They live in world where the best athletes in the United States and the highest paid are African Americans.  They live in a country where African Americans have struck it rich in the entertainment industry.  They live in a world where the whites just elected the first Hatian American to Congress and where whites elected to the Senate  the first African American since reconstruction. 

 

There are plenty of African American doctors, lawyers, dentists, business owners, university professors, poets, authors, musicians, scientists,  etc.  The best place in the world to be a minority is in the US.  They have more opportunities here than in any African country.

 

In these two cases, Brown and Garner were guilty.  Their lives were not put on trial, but the claims of eye-witnesses were and many eye-witnesses who were making false charges about Wilson had to change their testimony under cross examination.

 

It is these people who have presumed Wilson's guilt before any evidence was in.  He was presumed to be a racist white cop who used excessive force and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change their minds.  'They are out for blood, not justice.

 

Your little rant has no basis in reality, shoes.

[Guest]

I wasn't really debating about that, I was remarking that I don't see how the protests are going to be stopped in any way. They've more or less hit the point where it's simply going to continue.

 

They are continuing because of people like sharpton who incite things that give sharpton and his ilk power. 

 

Al Sharpton has little to nothing to do with most of these protests.  Most people protesting would be hard pressed to site the last time they have even heard Al Sharpton speak.  These protests are occurring because the masses want to live in a world where black lives are valued and not dismissed, who's lives are put on trial when they are killed by a white person, and are considered guilty until proven innocent.

 

 

One

 

Blessed are the peacemakers:

 

for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

 

Hope

 

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you.

 

Let not your heart be troubled,

 

neither let it be afraid. John 14:7

 

The Prince

 

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:

 

and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

 

and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

 

Of Peace

 

Be still, and know that I am God:

 

I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. Psalms 46:10

 

And As For Me

 

Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

 

Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things,

 

but condescend to men of low estate.

 

Be not wise in your own conceits.

 

Recompense to no man evil for evil.

 

Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Romans 12:15-17

 

In Jesus' Name I Pray

Amen

[1to3]

I saw a video of  a big man of color being brought down by police.

 

I saw the big man with his hands down in suppination position=non threatening. this is a non threatening position.

 

I saw how the police jumped the man anyway.

 

I did not see any of the police trying to reason with the big man, I just saw a bunch of  police encircling the big man, just waiting to pounce on the man.

 

I saw the police hold the bid man down.

 

I witnessed a murder.

 

Trying to justify a wrong as a right does not make it right.

Edited December 7, 2014 by 1to3

[Qnts2]

A funny coincidence. I happened to have the TV on and a re-run of Law and Order came on. For the few that may not know, this was a very long running show about NYC policemen and District Attorneys.

 

This episode was dated 2004 and in it a man was found dead. The medical examiner stated that it appeared to be a choke hold. Lenny Briscoe, on of the cops, comments that they used to use the choke hold, also called a sleeper hold, quite a bit, but ceased it's use because too many were ending up dead from it.

 

Well, that is a fictional TV program depicting fictional crimes, which tried to use some real facts in order to put forth social issues.  In otherwords, they knew that there was a problem with the choke hold back in 2004.  

 

What occurred recently in NYC was not a black vs. white issue. There is little doubt that Eric was breaking the law by peddling bootleg cigarrettes. Eric's protestations of innocence is probably very very common. I did not see Eric resisting arrest. He was not being violent. He was a big man and the policeman was smaller and had trouble bringing him down. Of course, I did not hear the police say to Eric to lay down. Eric was NOT being violent. So, to me, it looks like the rules concerning procedures for the Police should definitely be changed. No choke holds unless there is a possibility of someone getting hurt. Clearly the choke hold has a history of causing death, if it even made it into a TV show in 2004. And it does not take long for that hold to cause death.  

 

NYC was not at all like Ferguson. The policeman in NYC had no reasonable claim of fearing for his life. But, there is something wrong with the methods used by the police.

[Guest LadyC]

I saw a video of  a big man of color being brought down by police.

 

I saw the big man with his hands down in suppination position=non threatening. this is a non threatening position.

 

I saw how the police jumped the man anyway.

 

I did not see any of the police trying to reason with the big man, I just saw a bunch of  police encircling the big man, just waiting to pounce on the man.

 

I saw the police hold the bid man down.

 

I witnessed a murder.

 

Trying to justify a wrong does not make it right.

 

you saw a portion of a video clip. you didn't witness the entire event, or even the entire video or you would have seen the police trying to reason with him for several minutes before the take down. you'd have seen eric garner, who was not only selling cigarettes illegally outside of a smoke shop, but who was also out on bail from another crime he recently committed, struggling with the cops during the take down.

 

you did not witness a murder no matter what you THINK you saw. he was alive when he was put in the ambulance, which didn't even arrive until several minutes after he was taken down. he had a heart attack on the way to the hospital... he had a history of respiratory and heart problems. the cops had no way of knowing that.

 

a grand jury heard, saw and weighed evidence for three months before determining that according to the EVIDENCE, the officer was not responsible for his death.

 

this isn't justification on one side. it should not be demonization  from the other.

[Guest LadyC]

A funny coincidence. I happened to have the TV on and a re-run of Law and Order came on. For the few that may not know, this was a very long running show about NYC policemen and District Attorneys.

 

This episode was dated 2004 and in it a man was found dead. The medical examiner stated that it appeared to be a choke hold. Lenny Briscoe, on of the cops, comments that they used to use the choke hold, also called a sleeper hold, quite a bit, but ceased it's use because too many were ending up dead from it.

 

Well, that is a fictional TV program depicting fictional crimes, which tried to use some real facts in order to put forth social issues.  In otherwords, they knew that there was a problem with the choke hold back in 2004.  

 

What occurred recently in NYC was not a black vs. white issue. There is little doubt that Eric was breaking the law by peddling bootleg cigarrettes. Eric's protestations of innocence is probably very very common. I did not see Eric resisting arrest. He was not being violent. He was a big man and the policeman was smaller and had trouble bringing him down. Of course, I did not hear the police say to Eric to lay down. Eric was NOT being violent. So, to me, it looks like the rules concerning procedures for the Police should definitely be changed. No choke holds unless there is a possibility of someone getting hurt. Clearly the choke hold has a history of causing death, if it even made it into a TV show in 2004. And it does not take long for that hold to cause death.  

 

NYC was not at all like Ferguson. The policeman in NYC had no reasonable claim of fearing for his life. But, there is something wrong with the methods used by the police.

 

i agree with you. eric did struggle, but was not being violent in his struggles. and you're absolutely right... this is certainly not a race issue (nor was the ferguson case). i wish people would stop making it about skin color.

[ayin jade]

Making it about race is a cultural mindset. 

 

Almost 3 decades ago, I knew a white man who was not remotely a racist. He was in charge of a department at a local university. He had many people working under him. One man who happened to be black was not working out. He often did not show up for work, without any excuses. When he was at work, he neglected to do his job. After trying to reason with the man, the white man decided he had to be fired and replaced with someone who would do the job. The black man cried racism. He got various black groups involved. Result: black man kept his job and continued to be unreliable and incompetent while the white man got a mark against his employment record and had to undergo sensitivity training.