I want to know what you think about this

[kroschild]

First, when Jesus died Satan was bound. So, before that he had more rein--all "possessions" before the resurrection were not combating the Holy Spirit for room (as the original question in this forum asks); the Holy Spirit did not indwell before Pentecost, as far as I can tell. So as far as I can see, all demonic possessions before Acts are moot for this argument.

There are no instances that I can find of Christians becoming demon-possessed (none clarified as possession by the casting out of the demon.

Satan can USE people who let him (and we are all weak enough to let him at some point or another), but as far as I can see, He cannot possess a person who has the Spirit inside of them.

I agree with Ayin Jade's response to the scriptures in question in previous posts. I just thought I would add the point that prior to the resurrection, the Holy Spirit's indwelling didn't exist and therefore was not present to "battle" for place in the person.

KrosChild

[kroschild]

Jesus had the Spirit "light on him as a dove"--but obviously he was a special case! LOL

"Moved by" and "indwelt" are not the same thing....non-Christians can be influenced by the Spirit for good, but that does not mean he lives in them.

KrosChild

[Ovedya]

the Holy Spirit did not indwell before Pentecost, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit indwelled elijah, elisha enoch, daniel the prophets john the babtist. CHRIST ect.

2Pe 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

In the love of CHRIST

A son of man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually this is a fairly common misconception. The first to have ever received the Spirit inwardly were the apostles, shortly following the Lord's resurrection:

"And when He said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

This was the fulfillment of the Lord's word in John 7:39.

If you examine the language of the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively, you will see that the Holy Spirit did not actually inwell a person until after the Lord's resurrection. This is because the matter of sin and death were both taken care of by Christ's shed blood. Therefore,the Lord's death and resurrection made possible the release of the Spirit, that He could come and indwell our human spirit.

Up until the Lord's all-inclusive, all-conquoring, and life-releasing death and resurrection, the Spirit was only content to dwell with men, upon men, or empowering men to speak as God's representatives on the earth.

[kroschild]

the Holy Spirit did not indwell before Pentecost, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit indwelled elijah, elisha enoch, daniel the prophets john the babtist. CHRIST ect.

2Pe 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

In the love of CHRIST

A son of man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually this is a fairly common misconception. The first to have ever received the Spirit inwardly were the apostles, shortly following the Lord's resurrection:

"And when He said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

This was the fulfillment of the Lord's word in John 7:39.

If you examine the language of the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively, you will see that the Holy Spirit did not actually inwell a person until after the Lord's resurrection. This is because the matter of sin and death were both taken care of by Christ's shed blood. Therefore,the Lord's death and resurrection made possible the release of the Spirit, that He could come and indwell our human spirit.

Up until the Lord's all-inclusive, all-conquoring, and life-releasing death and resurrection, the Spirit was only content to dwell with men, upon men, or empowering men to speak as God's representatives on the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for saying it better than I could---I was struggling with words tonight LOL--could be cos its 3 am!

[Guest idied2]

the Holy Spirit did not indwell before Pentecost, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit indwelled elijah, elisha enoch, daniel the prophets john the babtist. CHRIST ect.

2Pe 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

In the love of CHRIST

A son of man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually this is a fairly common misconception. The first to have ever received the Spirit inwardly were the apostles, shortly following the Lord's resurrection:

"And when He said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

This was the fulfillment of the Lord's word in John 7:39.

If you examine the language of the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively, you will see that the Holy Spirit did not actually inwell a person until after the Lord's resurrection. This is because the matter of sin and death were both taken care of by Christ's shed blood. Therefore,the Lord's death and resurrection made possible the release of the Spirit, that He could come and indwell our human spirit.

Up until the Lord's all-inclusive, all-conquoring, and life-releasing death and resurrection, the Spirit was only content to dwell with men, upon men, or empowering men to speak as God's representatives on the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed yours is the misconseption. As though the HOLY SPIRIT is different some how between the ONE that was in Elijah and the ONE that was in Paul or Matthew or CHRIST. There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. There has always been only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The SPIRIT of our FATHER in heaven is the HOLY SPIRIT.

Mr 12:29

Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

In CHRIST JESUS

[nebula]

I have learned that we have a misunderstanding of "demon possession," and therefore have developed untrue unterstandings of what is going on.

The Scriptures do not necessarily give an explicit teaching on demonology. Waht we have are a few cases from which we get our inferences from.

I find it interesting reading this debate with responses from people who show no evidence of experience with casting out demons. No offense to your ability to interpret Scripture nor to those who taught you, but having personal experience with demons and having listened to testimonies from those who have cast out demons from people in the name of Jesus, it is not correct to say that you cannot be demon-possessed as a Christian.

We can't get involved with the technicalities of possession vs oppression and whether the deomon is in the body or the soul or the spirit or if the demon is "in" the person or "on" the person or whatever. The important thing to know is that the person is somehow being screwed with by a demon - whether the symptoms are mental or physical.

Being demonized in some manner, shape, or form does not mean a person cannot still make the decision to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then doing so does not just make the demon(s) go away. You can theocracize this statement all you want, but if you listened to the testimonies you would understand this, too. People who have been Christians for years have had demons cast out of them, and demons they did not know they had! If you ever prayed with someone who has experience delivering people, you would know this, too. Be careful about accusing someone who is "manifesting" demonic possession of not being a Christian. It doesn't work that way.

[Guest idied2]

I have learned that we have a misunderstanding of "demon possession," and therefore have developed untrue unterstandings of what is going on.

The Scriptures do not necessarily give an explicit teaching on demonology.  Waht we have are a few cases from which we get our inferences from.

I find it interesting reading this debate with responses from people who show no evidence of experience with casting out demons.  No offense to your ability to interpret Scripture nor to those who taught you, but having personal experience with demons and having listened to testimonies from those who have cast out demons from people in the name of Jesus, it is not correct to say that you cannot be demon-possessed as a Christian.

We can't get involved with the technicalities of possession vs oppression and whether the deomon is in the body or the soul or the spirit or if the demon is "in" the person or "on" the person or whatever.  The important thing to know is that the person is somehow being screwed with by a demon - whether the symptoms are mental or physical.

Being demonized in some manner, shape, or form does not mean a person cannot still make the decision to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.  Then doing so does not just make the demon(s) go away.  You can theocracize this statement all you want, but if you listened to the testimonies you would understand this, too.  People who have been Christians for years have had demons cast out of them, and demons they did not know they had!  If you ever prayed with someone who has experience delivering people, you would know this, too.  Be careful about accusing someone who is "manifesting" demonic possession of not being a Christian.  It doesn't work that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I went all over this world at one time searching out the people who claim to be casting out demons. I went to south america all over north america canada europe israel the middle east ect. While these people were going through their, unique in some cases, rituals that they had dreamed up. not at all like the new testament witnesses explained. I became wise to most of them. Never have I seen a real deliverance in the christian relm. I have seen real demon possesed people on the streets amongst other places. Let me tell you about one. Derek prince in florida. I went and they were casting a demon out of a man. They had been working on him for hours He was screaming at them and cussing at them and doing wierd gestures with his hands and body. I could see right through the man. He was getting tired and there were small noticable breaks in his acting. So I went out to my car and got my gun out of the glove box and went back in. I yeld out at them that this is so fony. The man turned to me and started cussing at me and growling. So I walked over to them and said here let me take care of this and pulled my gun out of the back of my pants and put it to his head and wala instant exocizem. He began begging me not to kill him and crying that he just wanted people to believe. Of corse I was arrested and held until they found out that it was just a fony gun. So you see I have a lot of experience with modern demon possesion to.

In CHRIST JESUS

[kroschild]

As though the HOLY SPIRIT is different some how between the ONE that was in Elijah and the ONE that was in Paul or Matthew or CHRIST. There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. There has always been only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The SPIRIT of our FATHER in heaven is the HOLY SPIRIT.

No one is saying that there is more than one Spirit--we are saying that he did not LIVE IN people until after Jesus resurrection. Just wanted to clarify what we meant

I think I have seen a woman actually possessed by a demon--but she wasn't a Christian at the time. And no one was claiming that she was possessed, it just appeared to us present that she might have been. The problem with knowing if someone is actually possessed by a demon is those pesky things' tendency to be invisible to the naked eye! Seriously though, I see no evidence that people cannot be possessed today. I also see no evidence that Christians cannot refuse the Spirit and accept a demon into themselves. I just refuse, based on scripture, to beleive that a Christian, indwelt by the Spirit, could be possessed. And since I know someone will ask: I do not believe that both can occur, because then where would the protection of the Spirit be?! I think that a Christian must have a heart in a state where a demon is welcomed in--whether or not they say "I want a demon", their life and heart can be accepting to one. In the cases of non-voluntary possession in the Bible, the people possessed were not Christians. Even IF you claim that Ananias and Sapphira were "possessed" it is clear that THEY themselves welcomed the demon--they are asked why THEY have lied to the Spirit!

Seeking Truth,

KrosChild

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

I am amazed and sort of amused at the opposite sides taken here. Regardless of my experiences, I MUST rely on the Word of God, and there seems to be two main areas in which someone is confused.

Whether or not the prophets were "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit seems pretty emphatically answered by Jesus:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It was the "mantle" of Elijah that gave him and Elisha the power to perform certain acts. The cloth itself did not have any power, but it was representative of Jesus comment above: "He dwelleth with you..."

The 2nd area of contention is whether a Christian can be indwelt by a demonic spirit, and again I refer to Jesus own words:

Matt 12:24-29 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And Paul goes on to say:

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

REMEMBER: Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Revelation we find that the Beast wages war against the saints of God, but NOT until they have received the SEAL of the Holy Spirit. Once Sealed by the Holy Spirit, NO demonic spirit can indwell a Christian. They may be able to destroy the body, but they CANNOT destroy the soul.

Many a so called "Christian" has believed in Christ, yet we see that even demons believe - AND TREMBLE. These so called "Christians" are met on the day of Judgment with this:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These verses will probably not change anyone's mind, but I do pray you give them some sincere consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ayin jade]

As though the HOLY SPIRIT is different some how between the ONE that was in Elijah and the ONE that was in Paul or Matthew or CHRIST. There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. There has always been only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The SPIRIT of our FATHER in heaven is the HOLY SPIRIT.

No one is saying that there is more than one Spirit--we are saying that he did not LIVE IN people until after Jesus resurrection. Just wanted to clarify what we meant

I think I have seen a woman actually possessed by a demon--but she wasn't a Christian at the time. And no one was claiming that she was possessed, it just appeared to us present that she might have been. The problem with knowing if someone is actually possessed by a demon is those pesky things' tendency to be invisible to the naked eye! Seriously though, I see no evidence that people cannot be possessed today. I also see no evidence that Christians cannot refuse the Spirit and accept a demon into themselves. I just refuse, based on scripture, to beleive that a Christian, indwelt by the Spirit, could be possessed. And since I know someone will ask: I do not believe that both can occur, because then where would the protection of the Spirit be?! I think that a Christian must have a heart in a state where a demon is welcomed in--whether or not they say "I want a demon", their life and heart can be accepting to one. In the cases of non-voluntary possession in the Bible, the people possessed were not Christians. Even IF you claim that Ananias and Sapphira were "possessed" it is clear that THEY themselves welcomed the demon--they are asked why THEY have lied to the Spirit!

Seeking Truth,

KrosChild

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me make sure Im understanding what you said.....

There are times when we as Christians dont have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Is that right? I disagree with that statement KrosChild.