Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

[Marilyn C]

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

Yes the Sheep Nations, are I also believe the ethnic (nations) peoples (individuals).

 

About having difficulties I would PM the Moderators - OneLight, or others, as I don`t understand the workings much either.

 

Blessings Marilyn.

 

PS. Would you mind if we went off topic slightly to discuss the Millennium itself as I have some questions & thoughts for you which arose from reading one of your posts in another thread.

[S.T. Ranger]

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

Yes the Sheep Nations, are I also believe the ethnic (nations) peoples (individuals).

 

About having difficulties I would PM the Moderators - OneLight, or others, as I don`t understand the workings much either.

 

Blessings Marilyn.

 

PS. Would you mind if we went off topic slightly to discuss the Millennium itself as I have some questions & thoughts for you which arose from reading one of your posts in another thread.

That would be fine. We can see if it has an application to the question of the OP. I would ask for your basis for "Sheep Nations," though, if you don't mind. I will say up front I hope it doesn't involve the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel," lol.

I will try to PM a Moderator. Difficulty with quoting is enough to discourage, lol. I am having to enter the code manually. I was able to straighten out the jumbled post, by the way. Seems to be a matter of the code my antagonist used. When I removed it that multiple quoting disappeared.

God bless.

[Marilyn C]

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

No I don`t believe in the `British Israel ` false teaching of the 10 lost tribes etc.

 

I believe the `sheep nations,` are individual people from the nations that came through the tribulation that looked after the Jews (Israelis) while they were persecuted during the tribulation. 

 

Also I looked back to what I thought was your post but it was Wingnut`s. However I will ask you, Do you believe that the Body of Christ will be on earth in the Millennium? And if you do - scriptures & God`s Purposes for that, please.

 

Thank you, Marilyn.

[S.T. Ranger]

Hi S.T.Ranger,

 

No I don`t believe in the `British Israel ` false teaching of the 10 lost tribes etc.

Whew! lol

I say that for two reasons: first, because you have given a mercifully short post, and I am about done in for the day, lol; secondly, very glad you reject the Ten Lost Tribe mythology.

I believe the `sheep nations,` are individual people from the nations that came through the tribulation that looked after the Jews (Israelis) while they were persecuted during the tribulation.

I wouldn't argue with that, but just mention that it is just as likely, due to the sealing of the 144,000, that it may be Jews in that day leading the charge. That is just the impression I get. I think I recall somewhere Jews escorted, and you may be familiar with that and see that as a support. But again, not going to argue that. It's not an unreasonable view. I would have to do a bit of review to refresh my memory, though.

Also I looked back to what I thought was your post but it was Wingnut`s. However I will ask you, Do you believe that the Body of Christ will be on earth in the Millennium? And if you do - scriptures & God`s Purposes for that, please.

Yes and no. Paul teaches that when we are Raptured we are henceforth from then on with the Lord. I believe we will minister, as glorified saints, much as the Angels minister among us today. I think we will reside in New Jerusalem which our Lord has gone before us to prepare, and that we will possibly "commute," lol.

As far as residing on the earth, I am not really convinced of that, nor do I think the Lord must be confined to Jerusalem to fulfill prophecy concerning His rule at that time. Will He be there, probably, but I do not think He is confined there.

We are told by Christ...

Matthew 8:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Which makes me lean very heavily in the belief that at least some Old Testament Saints will dwell there, which, as in the case of Abraham, is actually fitting, since it will be the culmination, physically, of the promises of God to and through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now what I have not yet made a dogmatic conclusion on is this: will the Patriarchs and other Old Testament saints be glorified at this point? I lean heavily to the belief they will be, but, again, the Rapture is specific to the Dead and living IN Christ, so I have refrained from a dogmatic statement as of yet. It may be they are raised physically, but that too brings a bit of a dilemma as far as I am concerned, thus I lean towards them being glorified and being considered as IN Christ through the grace of God.

So give me some time to consider the question a little more with a specific focus, as far as supplying Scripture to support that. This is one of those areas where we don't have too much to go on, and I am tired at this point and don't want to hastily reply.

In a nutshell, my basic view is that the Church will have her home in Heaven permanently with the Lord, and that during the Millennial Kingdom, we will minister to men as Angels do today, though I think this will be a visible ministry as opposed to the Angels in our time being primarily disguised from view.

Thank you, Marilyn.

Thanks for the questions, I always appreciate them, because hey are the motivators that cause us to get into the Word.

God bless.

[Marilyn C]

Hi S.T. Ranger,

 

Thank you for your reply. Now I understand what you believe & I`m sure we`ll have lots of discussion as time goes on.

 

Marilyn.

[Salty]

 

I never denied living on the earth after a resurrection. I gave the example of Lazarus to distinguish between bodily resurrection and the redemption of the body we call glorification, the first of which is the Resurrection of Christ.

And again, The quote from Zechariah does not mention resurrection. You are imposing something into the text which is simply not there. So be more careful about charging others with fallacy.

Salty:  there is only one glorified body Apostle Paul spoke of, and it is the "spiritual body" he preached in 1 Cor.15 that those alive on earth at Christ's coming are changed to. The raising of Lazarus was not the resurrection.

 

And once again, Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that Jesus brings the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes to gather the alive saints still on earth, which is the events on the Day of The Lord he was covering with the 1 Thess.5 chapter. The Zech.14 event of Christ's coming there is with that Day of The Lord, and both of those Scriptures are direct links to the event of Christ's second coming to Jerusalem.

 

Furthermore, since you endorse Darby's 'Pre-trib secret Rapture' theory per your post on another thread, accepting that theory means accepting Darby's dream of Christ gathering His saints to live in Heaven during the tribulation, and then returning after the tribulation, an idea which is not written in God's Word. Jesus returns one time, on the Day of The Lord. That's the timing Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2, which also agrees with the timing given at the beginning of Zech.14.

 

Look, if you can't follow the conversation, great, I'll try to work with that. But let me remind you that the issue centered around the Rapture, which Paul, in the First Century, taught was a resurrection which involved the changing of the body of those that are still living...and have never died.

 

Salty: I'm follow what you've surmised here perfectly, and showed Scripture evidence to prove you wrong. But you keep trying to mis-directs to idle points away the resurrection happening on the day of Christ's return.

 

Per what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, he covered BOTH the idea of the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming, and... those still alive on earth being changed to the "spiritual body" at Christ's coming. That also is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, and also what Jesus taught in Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27.

 

That is what is commonly known as glorification, and is not speaking of only a bodily resurrection from the dead. We will be glorified which will make our bodies suited to an eternal existence. When Lazarus died and was bodily resurrected, he did not go to Heaven, but remained on the earth. He was not glorified, and I can tell you why we know that:

 

Salty: commonly known to who, the Pre-trib secret Rapture school? You still insist on bringing up the subject of Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus' flesh only as a teaching example of the resurrection for His disciples and those might believe on Him in that time of His first coming; it was not the actual resurrection, so continually trying to use that as an example for what you propose for the end of this world does not match; there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15.

 

1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

No-one raised before Christ was raised in a glorified body.

No-one.

Salty: well, now you've sled off the subject we began speaking of, changing directions. What about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus after His resurrection went and preached to per 1 Pet.3 & 4? God revealed a long time ago through Solomon what happens after flesh death, our flesh going back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it, the two being separated by the severing of the "silver cord" (Eccl.12:5-7). We born on earth do not only have a flesh body, but a spirit/soul inside also that only... God can destroy. And what is born of flesh is flesh, and that born of Spirit is spirit like Jesus said in John 3, two separate operations.

 

You only give one of the "two."

And we can see Paul's instruction to the saints in your choice of proof-text:

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The warning from Christ is for the generation that sees the events which transpire. We do not need the warning, because that day will not overtake us as a thief. Why? Because we will not be here.

Salty: you finaly did what you've wrongly accused me of, you added Darby's Pre-trib secret Rapture idea to that Scripture when it is not there at all.

 

Moreover, you negate Christ's and His Apostle's command for those in Him to watch and be prepared to make a stand in the end, giving a Witness for Him, a subject Jesus covered in both Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the events leading up to His return. Jesus didn't give us that as a 'watch if you want to', He commanded us... to watch, as did Apostle Paul also did.

 

There is no secret pre-tribulational rapture written in God's Word. That is why on the 6th Vial of Rev.16 Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", for His to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk in shame.

 

In case you didn't notice, by that Rev.16:15 example, our Lord Jesus directly linked the time of His second coming and gathering of His Church on earth with that "as a thief" timing Paul gave in 1 Thess.5, and that Peter gave in 2 Pet.3:10. It reveals His coming is not until the last 7th Vial with the battle of Armageddon He and His angels coming out of Heaven will fight.

 

 

"Asleep" and "sleep" are simply euphemisms for death. Bodily death. You can see that in the account of Lazarus when the disciples mistook the Lord's reference to Lazarus being asleep as to mean he was simply taking rest. He says clearly "Lazarus is dead."

You can also see that in the two verses posted above: one speaks of sleep, the other says death, both refer to the same thing.

"Soul Sleep" is a false doctrine embraced by those that refuse to accept the Word of God as it is written and must change the meanings to support their doctrine. It is a shame but this doctrine has gained popularity in Modern Christendom in the last twenty years.

Salty: I've already commented on the usage of "asleep" pointing to the believer who's spirit never will die, even after death of the flesh. I do not hold to the 'dead-in-the-ground' theories of men's doctrines. To be absent from our flesh body is to be present with The Lord, the very idea of Eccl.12:5-7.

 

So when you say I've only covered one group involving the resurrection on the day of Christ's coming, you are stating a falsehood, because I've covered both about the "asleep" saints from the heavenly that have already died that Jesus brings with Him, and... the change of the saints still alive on earth on that day of His second coming (as per 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15 because it is covering both also, as do the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples also).

 

So show that in the quote from Zechariah.

The only ones we can dogmatically state are resurrected at the Lord's Return are the Tribulation Martyrs.

Salty:  you want me to re-write the Zechariah 14 Scripture just to suit you? Like I said before, just because Zech.14 does not give details of the gathering to Christ like 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 does, that does not mean it's a subject to be omitted there. That because we know Zech.14 is about the day of His second coming which the New Testament Scripture does include direct statements of the resurrection events. Jesus did not use the word resurrection in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 gathering of the saints examples either, should we just re-write that also to suit those who have to have some kind of direct statement to that effect? Should we redo Lesson 1 again?

My friend, your proof-text is irrelevant. No-one said Zechariah doesn't speak of the Lord's Return, in either passage quoted, but the point is that there is no resurrection of the living ever stated in correlation to the Lord's Return apart from the Tribulation Martyrs.

 

 

Salty:  kind of wish you'd make up your mind.

 

Zech.14

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

² For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

 

1 Thess.5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

Why did Apostle Paul proclaim that "day" would not overtake us as a thief if we are already raptured prior to that timing like the Pre-trib theory preaches??

 

Not that only, but Apostle Paul even continues... his admonition of our hope for salvation after giving that...

 

1 Thess.5

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

If we are raptured PRIOR to that time of "the day of the Lord", then that would mean no need... any longer of that "hope of salvation"! Clearly, Apostle Paul was warning us to remain awake spiritually ("sober") and watching (events leading up to Christ's return), in order... for that "day" of Christ's coming to not overtake us "as a thief in the night". This also is why our Lord Jesus repeated... this "as a thief" timing again to His Church on earth per Rev.16:15 in prep for His coming and gathering just prior to the final 7th Vial being poured out.

 

 

 

So the point you seem to be missing is that Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture is that everyone in the Church is resurrected into glorified bodies.

 

Salty: I've not missed Paul's point of the saints still alive on earth at the day of Christ's coming being changing at the twinkling of an eye to the "spiritual body" and then immediately gathered to Christ along with the asleep saints He brings with Him. It's simply pointing to two groups, the asleep saints that already had died, and the saints still alive on earth, both... being in the "spiritual body", which is the resurrection body Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. Yet many also completely ignore what our Lord Jesus said will also occur on that day with the unjust per John 5:28-29, the unjust also... being resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation", which also aligns with what God taught through Isaiah in Isaiah 25 concerning all peoples and nations on that day.

 

 

Another would be that resurrection is a foundational doctrine already revealed, the Rapture was a Mystery revealed by Paul in the First Century.

 

Salty: the idea of our spirit going back to The Father at flesh death was first taught in the Old Testament Books. And the idea of death swallowed up in victory was first taught in Isaiah 25, which is one of the Old Testament prophecies that Apostle Paul was pulling from when he gave 1 Cor.15. Afterall, Apostle Paul was a learned scholar of the Old Testament Scriptures, having been taught by one of the best Hebrew scholars of his day, Gamaliel.

 

It's very easy to distinguish when someone like you who swallow men's doctrine comes along with thinking the New Testament Books were the start of brand new ideas that God never said anything about to His prophets in the Old Testament. The Gospel was written of in the Old Testament Books first, the New Testament Books proclaim the events of fulfillment. Even details of Christ's crucifixion were first given through David in Psalms 22, about 1,000 years prior to it happenning.

 

The 'mystery' Paul spoke of that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles was written of too in the Old Testament prophets; those just did not understand it yet, but it was first given through them as Paul himself showed by quoting back in Old Testament Scripture to show its fulfillment.

In the Rapture Christ is never said to return to earth, and in His Second Coming He does. Not only that, but when He does, the believing that are left alive at the end of the Tribulation are not glorified, they are not resurrected at all.

 

Salty:  no, that's actually from men's traditions what you're saying there.

 

The harpazo ("caught up") event is timed with "the day of the Lord" events which ONLY occur to end the "great tribulation" timing Jesus taught. Apostle Paul covers that timing also in the 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2 chapters, as I have said before.

 

And per our Lord Jesus about the day of His coming per John 5:28-29, BOTH... the just and unjust go into their respective TYPE of resurrection. When Jesus returns, none alive in the flesh will still be in flesh bodies, all will be in the resurrection body type. Or did you miss our Lord Jesus' revealing in John 5:28-29 that there is a "resurrection of damnation" of the unjust also on that day of His return when all in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth?

 

 

How would they produce the descendants that will rebel against God and join Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom if they are glorified? The Lord taught that in the Resurrection we would be like the Angels, meaning...we would not be married. Which implies we will not have children.

 

Salty: it's men's traditions that require some to still be in flesh bodies on earth after Jesus' coming on the day of the Lord. Have you not really understood the 2 Pet.3:10 burning of the elements on that day of the Lord, and how it means the things of this present world being burned off the earth? That is the comparison Peter gave there with the previous destructions God did upon the earth, except this last time by His consuming fire. How could you miss that, especially since the Old Testament prophets were also given to write about it? That event is even what Paul's "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5 is about upon the wicked on that day. It's going to end... this present flesh age on earth.

 

About resurrection and marriage, then those of the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5:28-29 that come out of their graves on the day of Christ's coming, they will... be marrying?? No, they won't either. They will be in the "spiritual body" on that day also, their flesh having been melted by God's consuming fire on that day, their eyes melting in their sockets, etc., like the example given in Zech.14. But their spirit will still... be alive, which is what Paul's "spiritual body" is about. The idea of resurrection does NOT... mean automatic salvation in Christ, otherwise there would never be any thing such as a "resurrection of damnation" which Jesus proclaimed.

 

Unless you want to suggest that glorified saints produce offspring which then populate the Kingdom and rebel against God.

 

Salty:  you're just being silly now.

 

 

[Salty]

 

 

But to answer your question, the resurrection which takes place here...

Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

...is obviously not the resurrection depicted in Paul's teaching about the Rapture. First, it does not clearly state all believers are resurrected, as we see in Paul's teaching; secondly, the resurrection and catching away described by Paul has to follow the teaching itself, which was long after this incident; third, seeing that Paul states that all in Christ will be raised at the Rapture, this is best understood to be a physical resurrection only, in which their bodies (like that of Lazarus) are raised, but the resurrection is physical only.

It is doubtful that these saints were raised in glorified bodies, because that would have likely raised a stir and garnered more attention and mention than this resurrection received.

Salty: since when does the word 'resurrection' in God's Word NOT mean a raising from the dead?

 

No-one is arguing that. lol

As stated right there in the quote...it was a physical resurrection only. Now I could make this a little more complicated, which I was tempted to do in the first post:

 

Salty:  if a physical flesh resurrection, then it would mean they died TWICE, which is against the Hebrews 9:27 Scripture. They resurrected after Christ, because it involves the 1 Peter 3 event Peter proclaimed about leading some of the prisoners in the prison out, a prophecy originally given in Isaiah 42 about Christ. Just as Christ's disciples were allowed to 'see' Jesus in His resurrected body after His crucifixion, same with those who came out of their graves at His crucifixion. Doesn't mean they continued on earth though.

 

Matthew 27:51-53 King James Version (KJV)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It could be viewed as they resurrected at the time of the Cross, for this is when the veil of the Temple was rent, the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. "And many bodies of the saints arose" could have happened at the time of the Crucifixion, and they simply did not come out until after the Resurrection of the Lord.

While I would not be dogmatic about this, if that is the case, that definitely denies they were glorified.

And again, if they were glorified, I would think this would have more mention in the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament.

 

One can assume they had not received rewards yet which are only handed out after Jesus' return.

Glorification is not a reward, but a result of salvation.

Romans 8:29-30King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The rewards of the saint are just that...reward. No aspect of salvation can be properly called reward.

 

Salty:  I think you dwell too much on men's conditions of being 'glorified' instead of the actual Scripture like that by Paul. Those whom Paul is speaking of there in that Romans 8 Scripture is about God's election, even His elect still living on earth. Maybe you're forgetting about what part of our being is actually 'glorified', i.e., our spirit with soul inside us, by Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. There in Romans, it is simply about God's election that cannot... ever... be turned away from Him and His Son, for they are chosen and sent (see also John 17).

 

Yet with the future change on the day of Christ's return, to the "spiritual body", that is the future revealed glory Paul was speaking of in that Rom.8 chapter, and it involves God's creation also per that which also waits for that. Yet inside, meaning with our spirit, we in Christ Jesus are already to consider ourselves having been baptized into Christ's death and raised with Him, according to Apostle Paul. God's elect already have that promise given within their spirit/soul, and simply wait for the time of the manifestation of the sons of God in Christ's future Kingdom.

 

 

 

But resurrected, they were, just as Christ was raised from the dead.

No, they were not, lol.

Christ was raised in a glorified body, the saints raised at His Crucifixion/Resurrection do not have to be assumed as having been glorified as well. Some believe this, and I am not dogmatic against it, it is a possibility. However, it is irrelevant to the discussion of the Rapture, because the Rapture, again, would not be revealed until Paul taught about it some years later.

That is what is relevant in this discussion and thread.

 

Salty: you got off the subject prophecies of the day and timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints and instead started your 'resurrection' tirades. So I don't need to hear that mis-direction pointed at me. You dwelt on that, even as you're still doing.

 

 

 

Yet to think they were raised to new flesh bodies to die again corrupts the Hebrews passage that declares we are appointed only once to die.

No, salty, it doesn't, because we have multiple resurrection of people that were raised only to die again.

Lazarus, for example, would be the firstborn from the dead if he had been glorified when resurrected.

 

Salty: I do not consider your Lazarus resurrection example valid in relevance to the resurrection on the day of Jesus' second coming.

 

 

Your not understanding their resurrection at that point in time means you really haven't understood what the idea of being raised from the dead means, i.e., the spiritual aspects of it.

On the contrary, not only have I understood it, but I am showing you the error of your arguments, lol.

The Rapture is a resurrection which involves a change in our bodies whether we have died or not. That is the spiritual aspect of resurrection which was a mystery.

 

Salty: well, your statement still shows you haven't really understood it. Your "a change in our bodies" reveals you don't really understand it. Our flesh bodies are not changed on that day, our spirit with soul is separated from our flesh on that day.

 

John 3

⁶ That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

From our Lord Jesus, flesh comes from flesh, but one's spirit is born of The Spirit from God. This is also what Eccl.12:5-7 was proclaiming. It is also what Hebrews proclaims about things seen were not made of things which do appear. In other words, the operation of material matter is one realm, but the operation of spirit is another. And per Hebrews, God's creation of things seen (material matter) were created by His Spirit. Thus the greater, and more truly authentic realm, is that of Spirit involving our spirit inside our flesh bodies. This is why Apostle Paul proclaimed in 1 Cor.15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body, or image of the heavenly).

 

Thus the idea of the 'resurrection' is about the "spiritual body" Paul taught, whether one casts off their flesh body at flesh death today, or on the day of the Lord at Christ's return. This is how it was possible for our Lord Jesus to say to the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him, that he would be with Him that day in Paradise. It is also how the one in 2 Cor.12 saw Paradise, yet still lived to tell it, showing his "silver cord" between his spiritual body and flesh body had not been severed, thus he did not die.

 

Bodily resurrection was not a mystery to the Old Testament saint, because there was division among the sects as to whether there was going to be a resurrection or not.

So Paul's teaching, identified as a mystery, that is, a previously unrevealed truth, cannot be the resurrection of the dead as embraced by the Pharisees, for example. Or the one rejected by those ancient Annihilationist's...the Sadducees. They didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead (that is why they were sad, you see?)

Salty:  yet per Acts 24, the resurrection of the dead that the Pharisees believed is exactly what Paul said he had been preaching. Paul even said there he had the same hope as they, that there would be a resurrection of both the just and unjust. It was the group of Sadduccees that completely rejected any concept of resurrection.

 

Your fleshy mind is telling you something different.

My fleshly mind is thinking of responding to your rudeness with a little humor, but I will refrain from that if I can.

As per God's Holy Writ, the angels that appeared to Abraham and Lot were able to eat physical food,

Relevance?

God Himself appeared with those two Angels and had His feet washed, ate, and spoke face to face with Abraham. I view this as a Christophany, rather than just a Theophany, because it is just my belief that any time God has interacted with man directly it is the Son in view.

even as our Lord Jesus did after His resurrection.

Unlike the Lord's appearing to Abraham, the body which Christ arose in was the same body He died in, as evidenced by the scars. And there is no correlation between the physical manifestation of God and Angels in the Old Testament with the Incarnation or Resurrection of Christ. That body was specifically created in the womb of Mary for the express purpose of the Lord dying in it.

 

Salty: my example from Scripture was to show you more of what the resurrection state is like. Our Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly type resurrection body, retaining the marks of His crucifixion as a remembrance of what He did for us. Yet He appeared to His disciples in a closed off room, appearing and disappearing in their presence. Flesh cannot do that.

 

Moreover, the example of His appearing to Abraham in Gen.18 with two other 'men' (i.e., the two angels sent to Lot), with Abraham serving them earthly food and drink, was to show how a body of spirit can eat man's food, walk, and live upon the earth with the image appearance and likeness of man, for our Lord Jesus at that time had yet to be born in the flesh through Mary's womb. No mystery, since even the children of Israel in the desert were able to eat 'manna' which God rained down from Heaven. Thus God's Word shows a type of interplay between the two separate dimensions of the heavenly and the earthly.

 

 

And the two angels sent to Lot appeared as men, even to the sodomites who thought they were two flesh men.

They were not men...they were Angels. Spirit beings with the capability of taking on physical form. Thus this is irrelevant.

Salty: you might want refresh with a reading in Gen.18 again, where Scripture proclaims Abraham saw "three men". One of the three was our Lord Jesus in OT times. The other two were the two angels He sent to get Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

They did NOT... simply 'take on' physical form, which is some Hollywood Satanic horror film kind of idea.

 

The image likeness of man originates from God Himself, not from flesh. Even the Archangel Gabriel's name in the Hebrew means 'man of God'. Strange how you have not understood about that image of man and its origin from God's Own Likeness. Or maybe you only believe in a formless God, like a force only with no image likeness?

 

 

 

Thus the idea of the resurrection being about a new flesh, or a ghost body, shows lack of understanding on the subject.

It is about the same flesh glorified, my friend. It could be called new as to it's properties, now being spiritual bodies, but it is not a new body we will be raised in, but the same one we reside/d in in our lifetimes.

 

Salty: no, it is not about a new flesh body, which is why I said you're thinking about the matter with your fleshy mind (see 1 Cor.15:50, and John 3:6 again).

 

Their being resurrected then at Jesus' crucifixion and appearing to those in Jerusalem does not mean they appeared as ghosts,

No-one said they did.

This is a false argument.

 

Salty: that went with my statement that their resurrected bodies were neither flesh, nor a ghost, which you separated those statements of course.

 

nor that they had new flesh bodies only to have to die again later.

Not new flesh bodies, the same bodies bodily resurrected, not glorified. If they did receive glorified bodies, and this of course would have had to have been after Christ's own resurrection, then they could not possibly die again. The glorified body is suited to eternal existence.

 

Salty:  I disagree. They did not die again, no Scripture that they ever did or didn't, so I choose that they remained in their resurrection state after they appeared, and then at some point went to the heavenly where the 'asleep' saints are, or like those under the altar in Rev.6, or like the Lazarus of Luke 16 in Abraham's bosom in Paradise, if you like.

 

 

 

 

[Salty]

 

Not new flesh bodies, the same bodies bodily resurrected, not glorified. If they did receive glorified bodies, and this of course would have had to have been after Christ's own resurrection, then they could not possibly die again. The glorified body is suited to eternal existence.

 

The only problem with this is that...you have no Biblical basis on which to make this statement. IT falls under a heading of speculation and cannot be called Biblical truth.

Salty:  they were resurrected as the Scripture states. The Scripture does not tell us what 'kind' of bodies they were in when they came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. So your idea they had renewed flesh bodies is just as much speculation. Mine simply aligns with more Scripture evidence of what the concept of resurrection is, even as per the early Eccl.12:5-7 example and the 2 Cor.5 example by Paul of what would happen if our earthly tabernacle were "dissolved".

 

When Paul speaks of "sleep" he is referring to death, which has nothing to do with the spirit.

We know that a man's spirit lives on after death, even those of unbelievers, who will also be resurrected in bodies suited for an eternal existence.

Open that can of worms and chew on it.

God bless.

 

Salty:  not quite, per 1 Thess.5 when he speaks of sleep it's about being spiritually blinded, deceived, vs. spiritually sober, awake in Christ.

 

In 1 Thess.4 he uses the 'asleep' idea to point to those in Christ that have died, their spirits still being alive, which he also did that in the 1 Cor.15 chapter also about the idea of the raising of the dead. You're actually pointing closer to men's traditions about 'soul sleep' with what you've said.

 

 

 

 

[S.T. Ranger]

Salty, sorry to have to remove some of the quotes but for some reason the code you are using throws everything in disarray when I try to respond to them. I am now trying to respond on another forum (though not posting it there) and importing it back to this one.

Salty: there is only one glorified body Apostle Paul spoke of, and it is the "spiritual body" he preached in 1 Cor.15 that those alive on earth at Christ's coming are changed to. The raising of Lazarus was not the resurrection.

False argument: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection. One among a number of resurrections which take place before Christ's Resurrection. But Christ is the First to be raised in a glorified body. Then the Rapture. Then the Two Witnesses. Then the Tribulation Martyrs.

Those are the only resurrections relevant to the discussion of the Rapture. The resurrection that takes place at the Great White Throne will be the resurrection where the dead are raised after the thousand year period of the Millennial Kingdom.

And once again, Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that Jesus brings the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes to gather the alive saints still on earth, which is the events on the Day of The Lord he was covering with the 1 Thess.5 chapter. The Zech.14 event of Christ's coming there is with that Day of The Lord, and both of those Scriptures are direct links to the event of Christ's second coming to Jerusalem.

That is not in question. How many times do I have to say your proof-texts apply to Christ's Return?

What your proof-texts are lacking is tying the Rapture to His physical Return.

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief. That is clear. And Paul goes on to say why...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again, Paul makes it clear that for the Church...being alive or dead makes no difference in regards to the Day of the Lord. What he is saying is that the Day of the Lord is sudden, unexpected wrath that comes upon the children of darkness.

Now let's back up to ch.4 and see this in the context of the previous teaching:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The same subject is in view here, a teaching meant to comfort those that mistake the tribulation they are going through with the Tribulation that will come.

We back up again:

1 Thessalonians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

Now here we see Paul distinguish between tribulation which he has already told them they would go through, and the tribulation associated with the Day of the Lord.

Now let's see if we can make this tribulation fit what he says in ch.5:

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Two entirely different issues: the first is tribulation which they should already know they are going to go through, and the second the wrath of God poured out on the children of darkness.

The first they will go through...the second they will not. Chapter Four tells them why they will not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

The Lord tells why overcomers will not go through that time here...

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Okay, so far so good. The code seems to integrate properly, so hopefully response time can be increased.