Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

[S.T. Ranger]

I never denied living on the earth after a resurrection. I gave the example of Lazarus to distinguish between bodily resurrection and the redemption of the body we call glorification, the first of which is the Resurrection of Christ.

And again, The quote from Zechariah does not mention resurrection. You are imposing something into the text which is simply not there. So be more careful about charging others with fallacy.

Furthermore, since you endorse Darby's 'Pre-trib secret Rapture' theory per your post on another thread, accepting that theory means accepting Darby's dream of Christ gathering His saints to live in Heaven during the tribulation, and then returning after the tribulation, an idea which is not written in God's Word. Jesus returns one time, on the Day of The Lord. That's the timing Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2, which also agrees with the timing given at the beginning of Zech.14.

Again, this is not Darby's invention, simply a teaching directly from the First Century, revealed by Paul.

Your mistake is to have Christ returning twice. When He returns, He will return just as He went, as described in Zechariah 14.

As already mentioned...no mention of resurrection in either of the two posts you have offered.

1 Corinthians 15:48-52

King James Version (KJV)

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

As mentioned repeatedly, here we have what Paul calls a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth. What that means is that the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament...cannot be what Paul has in view.

Most were aware of the resurrection (regardless of whether they believed it or not, but...not one person knew about this event, which unlike the Second Coming events...occur in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye.

The events of the Second coming take place over a period of time. Based on Daniel, the events that occur while the Kingdom is established have a 75 day window:

Daniel 12:6-12

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

"A time, times, and half a time," according to the Jewish calendar, is 1260 days.

We then have 1290 days, which is a thirty day difference.

We then are given 1335 days which is a 75 day difference.

This time begins at the time of the abomination which makes desolate, that starts the countdown. The extended days correlate to the events described in regards to the Lord's Return (v.11).

But the Rapture takes place immediately. In a moment, the twinkling of an eye. That there is no resurrection mentioned in connection with the Lord's description of events (apart from those who die during the Tribulation), coupled with the fact that we know the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which deals with both believers and unbelievers, will not take place in a moment, and adding the fact that the resurrection of the dead described just prior to this passage...

Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

...the obvious conclusion to draw is that two events must be in view.

The emphasis refers to the Tribulation, as seen also here:

Matthew 24:15-21

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12 refers to the Tribulation, so Paul cannot be talking about the resurrection spoken of in vv.1-2. It would not be a mystery if this is what Paul has in mind, because this was common knowledge. In v.1 it should be noted that Michael, the great prince of Israel will stand up and Israel will be delivered. We do not have to impose the resurrection of the dead (unjust) at the time of deliverance, and we don't because Revelation 20 makes it clear there is a thousand year period between the return of Christ and the raising of those that will be consigned to Hell (the Lake of Fire) for eternity:

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the only resurrection associated with the return of Christ, and it is specific to those who have not "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." In other words...only tribulation Martyrs can be dogmatically stated to being glorified when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. We could debate whether they are raised in glorified form, because in the Kingdom, a bodily resurrection (as opposed to glorification) can just as equally result in a thousand year life due to the fact that in the Kingdom life-spans will be greatly increased, restored to the life-spans we see in men closer to creation (Adam, Methuselah, et cetera).

Isaiah writes...

Isaiah 65:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So while I would not be overly dogmatic concerning the Tribulation Martyrs being glorified, I lean heavily towards the fact that they are based on the description.

But the point still remains: you need to provide Scripture that shows the Rapture at the Return of Christ, rather than what Scripture consistently teaches which is that when Christ Returns...the living among believers (Sheep, Wheat) will enter into the Kingdom physically (not glorified), and the living among unbelievers (Goats, Tares, Chaff, Evil Trees)...will be destroyed (not resurrected into bodies suited for Hell, which the dead (unjust) will not be raised and cast into until one thousand years after the Lord's Second Coming.

And that swings us back to the OP, in that if you continue to insist that the Rapture takes place at the time of the Lord's Return, you must reconcile how glorified saints (and this all that would be left alive) enter into the Kingdom and then produce the offspring which is said to rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Look, if you can't follow the conversation, great, I'll try to work with that. But let me remind you that the issue centered around the Rapture, which Paul, in the First Century, taught was a resurrection which involved the changing of the body of those that are still living...and have never died.

Salty: I'm follow what you've surmised here perfectly, and showed Scripture evidence to prove you wrong. But you keep trying to mis-directs to idle points away the resurrection happening on the day of Christ's return.

The fact that you are still not addressing what has been presented indicates that you are not following, because you keep reiterating arguments already dealt with. How do you ever expect to progress in this discussion if you keep trying to use the same arguments?

Address the Scripture provided, and show why my "surmising's" are in error, and quit being slothful in your responses...post the relevant Scripture and comment as to how it is relevant to your defense of your position.

 

Per what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, he covered BOTH the idea of the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming, and... those still alive on earth being changed to the "spiritual body" at Christ's coming. That also is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, and also what Jesus taught in Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27.

If "those alive on the earth" are changed as Paul describes here...then you have the Millennial Kingdom being populated by glorified saints.

Can't you understand the dilemma that raises? That means there are no physical believers to repopulate and supply those that rebel against God, who are destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

And nowhere in the Gospels, when His Return is in view, do we see a resurrection. We see saints left, and unbelievers taken. We know how they are taken based upon the Lord's words here:

Luke 17:22-25

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

He goes on to say...

Luke 17:30-37

King James Version (KJV)

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

This is what happens in that day, Salty: unbelievers are destroyed (physically), and believers are left alive...to enter into the Kingdom. That is where the population that rebels against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come from.

You can dance around the OP all you like, but it is going to be a constant goad to your doctrine.

 

That is what is commonly known as glorification, and is not speaking of only a bodily resurrection from the dead. We will be glorified which will make our bodies suited to an eternal existence. When Lazarus died and was bodily resurrected, he did not go to Heaven, but remained on the earth. He was not glorified, and I can tell you why we know that:

Salty: commonly known to who, the Pre-trib secret Rapture school? You still insist on bringing up the subject of Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus' flesh only as a teaching example of the resurrection for His disciples and those might believe on Him in that time of His first coming; it was not the actual resurrection, so continually trying to use that as an example for what you propose for the end of this world does not match; there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15.

No-one said it was the "actual resurrection."

That's the point you are missing: Lazarus was only bodily raised, he was not glorified. His resurrection can be distinguished from the resurrection of the saints that follow Christ's resurrection.

And you are in error on this point as well:

there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15.

Glorification is in fact a resurrection of the flesh. That you would say this reveals quite a bit.

The glorified body is a spiritual body, and if you would read the rest of 1 Corinthians you would see how Paul clearly defines the difference. The body the Lord was raised in was the same body He died in, so here are a couple of verses for you to consider:

John 20:25-28

King James Version (KJV)

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Luke 24:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

What we can conclude from these two passages is that the body in which Christ was raised in was the same body and that it is not devoid of flesh and bones. In other words, it is a substantial body that can be seen touched, and the Lord contrasts that with the spirit when it is separated from the physical body at death.

In eternity we will have a body which has been raised in glorified form just as our Lord was raised. That is why He is called the first-born from the dead. Those bodies will be, I believe, similar to that of Angels, though the distinction is that while Angels can manifest in physical form to interact in the physical universe, we have no record of them first being physical or having their beginning in the physical universe as we have. Those bodies will be suitable for existence both in the spiritual realm (Heaven) as well as the physical universe (the new heavens and earth), much like Angels can abide in both. Our state now, being within bodies in need of redeeming, is that of not having the ability to enter into the spiritual realm. Only our spirits can do that, and only at death (though we can speculate in regards to Paul and John in regards to their visits to Heaven).

Continued...

Edited December 23, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[S.T. Ranger]

1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Salty: well, now you've sled off the subject we began speaking of, changing directions. What about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus after His resurrection went and preached to per 1 Pet.3 & 4?

First, this is what you need to understand about the resurrection of the Church, which takes place at the Rapture. Because you mistake the Rapture for a/the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament, you are not understanding the distinction of the mystery.

And this is warned against here:

Hebrews 6:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The mystery revealed by Paul would not be a mystery if the first principles of resurrection, which were foundational, are what Paul is teaching in regards to the resurrection the Church receives at the Rapture.

Secondly...

What about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus after His resurrection went and preached to per 1 Pet.3 & 4?

...what about them.

The thing to consider in regards to them is that this declarative preaching occurred...while Christ was physically still in the tomb.

Understand?

That means that this takes place before Christ is risen, and because Christ is the firstborn from the dead, we cannot have these He preached to resurrected before Himself.

Read these again...

1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

...and I hope the significance will come to you.

God revealed a long time ago through Solomon what happens after flesh death, our flesh going back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it, the two being separated by the severing of the "silver cord" (Eccl.12:5-7). We born on earth do not only have a flesh body, but a spirit/soul inside also that only... God can destroy. And what is born of flesh is flesh, and that born of Spirit is spirit like Jesus said in John 3, two separate operations.

You need to understand the difference between spiritual resurrection (the new birth) and physical resurrection that takes place when the Rapture occurs. We are born of God at salvation...

John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a spiritual resurrection that occurs in our flesh. This cannot be confused with the redemption of our bodies, as noted here:

Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is the resurrection Paul is speaking about concerning the Rapture of the Church, the Two Witnesses, and I believe also the Tribulation Martyrs.

In John 3 what is in view is not the resurrection of the physical body, but the resurrection, spiritually, of the natural man. A study of the New Birth will greatly help in the discussion, and unfortunately, many that try to understand resurrection are woefully lacking in understanding of the new birth itself, which denies them a proper understanding of the Rapture to begin with.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

You only give one of the "two."

And we can see Paul's instruction to the saints in your choice of proof-text:

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The warning from Christ is for the generation that sees the events which transpire. We do not need the warning, because that day will not overtake us as a thief. Why? Because we will not be here.

Salty: you finaly did what you've wrongly accused me of, you added Darby's Pre-trib secret Rapture idea to that Scripture when it is not there at all.

Don't be absurd, lol.

I simply pointed out what Paul teaches here.

The Darby Argument is both weak and pathetic. Try addressing the Scripture.

Moreover, you negate Christ's and His Apostle's command for those in Him to watch and be prepared to make a stand in the end, giving a Witness for Him, a subject Jesus covered in both Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the events leading up to His return. Jesus didn't give us that as a 'watch if you want to', He commanded us... to watch, as did Apostle Paul also did.

Again, unless you understand Christ's ministry, you will remain confused about a great number of things. Christ's earthly ministry was specific to Israel...alone:

Matthew 10:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Lord's own teaching cannot be denied. This reiterates the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not a revealed truth to man, though it was foretold in prophecy. This is another understanding one must come to when trying to properly understand the Rapture.

Christ ministered primarily to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy concerning Messiah, but not one person can be said to understand the Gospel prior to the revelation of the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost. The closest person we can find is JOhn the Baptist:

John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

But not even the greatest Prophet among men understood the Gospel that was at this time still a mystery. He never understood this and placed faith in Christ and His death, though He prophesied of the Gospel as many Old Testament passages did:

Matthew 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Not even the greatest of Old Testament Prophets was privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. No-one was.

Therefore, you impose instruction for Israel, particularly the Israel that will be alive in the day of Christ's return (Let him that readeth understand)..on the Church.

There was no Church prior to Pentecost.

There is no secret pre-tribulational rapture written in God's Word. That is why on the 6th Vial of Rev.16 Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", for His to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk in shame.

It can be viewed as secret based on the facts that...

1)...the Rapture was a mystery, thus "secret;"

2)...when the Rapture takes place God will send strong delusion on those that are already deceived, natural, and without the ability to understand the spiritual things of God.

And the Rapture definitely qualifies as belonging to the "spiritual things of God category," lol.

Again...that day will not overtake us as a thief, because we have been delivered from the wrath to come, which is clearly a reference to the Tribulation, because Paul contrasts that with the tribulation they had been told to expect in their temporal lives, which, by the way, was a primary reason for their concern and need to be comforter.

In case you didn't notice, by that Rev.16:15 example, our Lord Jesus directly linked the time of His second coming and gathering of His Church on earth with that "as a thief" timing Paul gave in 1 Thess.5, and that Peter gave in 2 Pet.3:10. It reveals His coming is not until the last 7th Vial with the battle of Armageddon He and His angels coming out of Heaven will fight.

That does not negate the teachings which without controversy point out that the Church will not go through the Tribulation. You say it is the Angels coming with Him despite the fact that you argue previously about the saints coming with Him. How can they come with Him if they are not already with Him, and how do we reconcile the Rapture at His Return and the saints being with Him? And how do we have a Millennial Kingdom comprised only of glorified saints?

Show me the Church in the events described in Revelation. You won't be able to. Only Jews and Gentiles. Those are the only two groups mentioned in Revelation within the events.

They're not there because of the promise of the Lord, which is spoken to the Church:

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"Asleep" and "sleep" are simply euphemisms for death. Bodily death. You can see that in the account of Lazarus when the disciples mistook the Lord's reference to Lazarus being asleep as to mean he was simply taking rest. He says clearly "Lazarus is dead."

You can also see that in the two verses posted above: one speaks of sleep, the other says death, both refer to the same thing.

"Soul Sleep" is a false doctrine embraced by those that refuse to accept the Word of God as it is written and must change the meanings to support their doctrine. It is a shame but this doctrine has gained popularity in Modern Christendom in the last twenty years.

Salty: I've already commented on the usage of "asleep" pointing to the believer who's spirit never will die, even after death of the flesh. I do not hold to the 'dead-in-the-ground' theories of men's doctrines. To be absent from our flesh body is to be present with The Lord, the very idea of Eccl.12:5-7.

And your commentary is in error, because the spirit does not "sleep," or in other words, the spirit of man does not die.

But I am glad you reject Soul Sleep, on that at least we can be in agreement. However, my view is that men did not go to be with the Lord upon death until the Cross. It is at this time, I believe, that the Lord liberated the spirits in prison, who could not enter into the Most Holy, that is, God's presence in Heaven, until first their sins were atoned for. The sacrifices of the Levitical Economy could not take away sins, thus every Old Testament saint died still needing their sins forgiven.

The sacrifice of Christ, on the other hand, is the means of eternal redemption for believers:

Hebrews 9:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We cannot impose New Covenant Standards into the Old, and that is precisely what you are doing by laying again a foundational doctrine of resurrection, quite in conflict with the teachings of Scripture.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

So when you say I've only covered one group involving the resurrection on the day of Christ's coming, you are stating a falsehood, because I've covered both about the "asleep" saints from the heavenly that have already died that Jesus brings with Him, and... the change of the saints still alive on earth on that day of His second coming (as per 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15 because it is covering both also, as do the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples also).

So all you have to do is show this resurrection you keep speaking of that takes place at Christ's return. The first two deal with the resurrection of the Church, the second two deal with Christ's return.

Two entirely different events.

And the "two" mentioned, Salty, is in regards to this:

 

Salty: the Zech.14:5 verse is about two events, the first about Jesus' warning for those in Judea to flee Jerusalem in prep for His coming because of that area being flattened (i.e., the "sudden destruction" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5).

You only give one of the events, what is lacking is the resurrection.

Salty: you want me to re-write the Zechariah 14 Scripture just to suit you?

No, I want you to show me resurrection in the quote you provided. You are eisegetically imposing your doctrine into the text.

Show the resurrection you keep declaring occurs in the Second Coming. The only resurrection is the first resurrection in Revelation 20, and that involves Tribulation Martyrs...only.

Like I said before, just because Zech.14 does not give details of the gathering to Christ like 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 does, that does not mean it's a subject to be omitted there.

I agree, but you saying that the Rapture occurs at this time is what is in view: you have no Biblical Basis for your doctrine, it is a fanciful conclusion arrived at because you don't fully understand resurrection.

Again, an understanding of the New Birth is vital, and should precede engaging in eschatological discussions. Get that wrong, or don't understand it fully, and one's eschatology is going to be in error.

That because we know Zech.14 is about the day of His second coming which the New Testament Scripture does include direct statements of the resurrection events.

But not in Zechariah nor the Gospels. You are imposing that into the text.

Jesus did not use the word resurrection in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 gathering of the saints examples either, should we just re-write that also to suit those who have to have some kind of direct statement to that effect?

No, we take what is written and seek to understand it in light of all relevant texts. You have not done that. You have imposed the Rapture where it is never mentioned.

Should we redo Lesson 1 again?

I think that is necessary, yes.

Because your doctrine merges foundational teachings concerning Christ with the completion the New Testament brings to these Doctrines.

My friend, your proof-text is irrelevant. No-one said Zechariah doesn't speak of the Lord's Return, in either passage quoted, but the point is that there is no resurrection of the living ever stated in correlation to the Lord's Return apart from the Tribulation Martyrs.

Salty: kind of wish you'd make up your mind.

My doctrine is consistent. You can review the posts and you will find no discrepancies or contradictions. That you are having difficulty interpreting the posts is seen in your confusion above concerning the "two."

You are doing the same thing with Scripture. I don't say that to be harsh, my friend, just trying to make you see where the weakness of your defense lies.

If you would deal with the OP alone, we could save ourselves a lot of time.

Why did Apostle Paul proclaim that "day" would not overtake us as a thief if we are already raptured prior to that timing like the Pre-trib theory preaches??

It's quite simple, really, the Day of the Lord is not something we have to fear because we have been delivered from that wrath, which is contrasted with temporal tribulation that the Lord promised we would undergo as long as we are in the world:

John 16:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Believers can expect temporal tribulation, but we have been delivered from the wrath to come, which in 1 Thessalonians cannot be viewed as anything but the Tribulation itself. The Day of the Lord is not just the Lord's Return, but involves the tribulation which HE, in judgment of the wicked, imposes upon the children of darkness.

Not that only, but Apostle Paul even continues... his admonition of our hope for salvation after giving that...

1 Thess.5

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

...If we are raptured PRIOR to that time of "the day of the Lord", then that would mean no need... any longer of that "hope of salvation"!

Not at all. All of groan within ourselves awaiting the redemption of our bodies, deliverance from a cursed world and condition.

Just a weak argument.

You are neglecting the context of 1 Thessalonians itself, because we see that they are troubled about the tribulation they are going through.

In regards to that, Paul basically states "I already told you that you would go through this." But the tribulation that will come, that is, thee wrath of God poured out...they do not need to be troubled about, because we they have been delivered from the wrath to come.

Read the entire book a couple of times, it doesn't take that long, maybe ten minutes per read. Familiarize yourself with the overall context so you can place the parts in a proper context.

Clearly, Apostle Paul was warning us to remain awake spiritually ("sober") and watching (events leading up to Christ's return), in order... for that "day" of Christ's coming to not overtake us "as a thief in the night".

That is just a basic Christian teaching. Of course we are to be aware, and the armor is for our temporal existence...not so we can make it through the wrath of God.

That is just basic.

This also is why our Lord Jesus repeated... this "as a thief" timing again to His Church on earth per Rev.16:15 in prep for His coming and gathering just prior to the final 7th Vial being poured out.

That coming "as a thief" is not for the Church, but for the children of darkness.

That coming is in wrath, which is not the case concerning the Rapture.

Continued...

Edited December 23, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[S.T. Ranger]

Salty: I've not missed Paul's point of the saints still alive on earth at the day of Christ's coming being changing at the twinkling of an eye to the "spiritual body" and then immediately gathered to Christ

You are blending two teachings erroneously. There is no resurrection when Christ returns apart from the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs.

along with the asleep saints He brings with Him.

The Resurrection of the Church takes place at the same time, that includes both dead and alive saints, who both return with Christ when He returns.

And there is no mention of this in any of the Gospels where His Return is described.

It's simply pointing to two groups,

Which cannot be seen in Scripture dealing with His return.

the asleep saints that already had died, and the saints still alive on earth, both... being in the "spiritual body", which is the resurrection body Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

Agreed. Now if you can just recognize that this does not take place at the Sheep and Goat Judgment you will be on your way to a clearer understanding of eschatological events.

In that judgment all are alive. The wicked are destroyed, the believing go into the Kingdom.

Yet many also completely ignore what our Lord Jesus said will also occur on that day with the unjust per John 5:28-29, the unjust also... being resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation", which also aligns with what God taught through Isaiah in Isaiah 25 concerning all peoples and nations on that day.

So show this in Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture. That's all you have to do.

Another would be that resurrection is a foundational doctrine already revealed, the Rapture was a Mystery revealed by Paul in the First Century.

Salty: the idea of our spirit going back to The Father at flesh death was first taught in the Old Testament Books. And the idea of death swallowed up in victory was first taught in Isaiah 25, which is one of the Old Testament prophecies that Apostle Paul was pulling from when he gave 1 Cor.15. Afterall, Apostle Paul was a learned scholar of the Old Testament Scriptures, having been taught by one of the best Hebrew scholars of his day, Gamaliel.

Great, seems you are aware of Scripture that not even Israel, who primarily believed men went to Sheol...haven't been able to find.

And what you are doing here is denying Paul's own statement...that what he was teaching was a mystery.

No amount of commentary is going to change what is actually written in Scripture.

It's very easy to distinguish when someone like you who swallow men's doctrine comes along with thinking the New Testament Books were the start of brand new ideas that God never said anything about to His prophets in the Old Testament.

On the contrary, God's Redemptive Plan has remained consistent, but what you are not realizing is that revelation has been progressive.

Make your doctrine fit...

1 Corinthians 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 3:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

...Scripture.

The Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men prior to Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit, coming in the Ministry of the Comforter, revealed it to men.

The Gospel was written of in the Old Testament Books first, the New Testament Books proclaim the events of fulfillment.

Christ even declared it to His disciples. Let's see the reaction:

Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Not only did Peter not embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ...he was in direct opposition to it. He did not want Christ to die, but that is the express purpose of the Incarnation, and the heart of Redemption which has been progressively revealed through the Ages.

Peter is still in opposition to the Gospel when he takes up a sword in Gethsemane, and when...he denies he even knows the Lord to save his own skin.

Even details of Christ's crucifixion were first given through David in Psalms 22, about 1,000 years prior to it happenning.

That doesn't mean men knew what it meant, Salty.

You're not going to win that debate, it is clear that the Gospel was a hidden mystery revealed at Pentecost.

The 'mystery' Paul spoke of that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles was written of too in the Old Testament prophets; those just did not understand it yet, but it was first given through them as Paul himself showed by quoting back in Old Testament Scripture to show its fulfillment.

And the key here is "Mystery," which Biblically means unrevealed.

The Rapture is first revealed by Paul, and you are confusing this with the foundational teachings of the Old Testament, which the writer expressly warns against doing.

In the Rapture Christ is never said to return to earth, and in His Second Coming He does. Not only that, but when He does, the believing that are left alive at the end of the Tribulation are not glorified, they are not resurrected at all.

Salty: no, that's actually from men's traditions what you're saying there.

It is simply Biblical Doctrine direct from First Century teachings of Christ, Paul, and John.

If you disagree please present the Scripture that has a resurrection associated with Christ's return, other than the First Resurrection.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

The harpazo ("caught up") event is timed with "the day of the Lord"

So show this from Scripture.

I can already tell you will not be able to do that.

events which ONLY occur to end the "great tribulation" timing Jesus taught.

So where is the Scripture. So far all I have is the presentation of Second Coming passages with your imposition of resurrection attached. Wishful thinking does not a doctrine support.

Apostle Paul covers that timing also in the 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2 chapters, as I have said before.

Where? 1 Thessalonians 5, perhaps, but not sure we have gotten into discussion of 2 Thessalonians yet.

Either way, show how 2 Thessalonians teaches the Rapture at Christ's Return.

And per our Lord Jesus about the day of His coming per John 5:28-29, BOTH... the just and unjust go into their respective TYPE of resurrection. When Jesus returns, none alive in the flesh will still be in flesh bodies, all will be in the resurrection body type. Or did you miss our Lord Jesus' revealing in John 5:28-29 that there is a "resurrection of damnation" of the unjust also on that day of His return when all in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth?

Which completely misses the fact that there is a resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs at the end of the Tribulation, and then a resurrection at the end of the Millennial Kingdom: you are failing to see the significance of the fact that two resurrections, the latter without question tied to the Lord's teaching in John 5.

This would have the resurrection of the dead described here...

Revelation 20:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

...taking place one thousand years before Scripture states it will happen.

How would they produce the descendants that will rebel against God and join Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom if they are glorified? The Lord taught that in the Resurrection we would be like the Angels, meaning...we would not be married. Which implies we will not have children.

Salty: it's men's traditions that require some to still be in flesh bodies on earth after Jesus' coming on the day of the Lord. Have you not really understood the 2 Pet.3:10 burning of the elements on that day of the Lord, and how it means the things of this present world being burned off the earth? That is the comparison Peter gave there with the previous destructions God did upon the earth, except this last time by His consuming fire. How could you miss that, especially since the Old Testament prophets were also given to write about it? That event is even what Paul's "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5 is about upon the wicked on that day. It's going to end... this present flesh age on earth.

It's not man's tradition that requires, not some, but all to be in flesh bodies when the Lord Returns. You are making mincemeat of some very simple and basic teachings.

Peter's teaching can be correlated to this:

Revelation 20:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And this takes place after the Millennial Kingdom.

About resurrection and marriage, then those of the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5:28-29 that come out of their graves on the day of Christ's coming,

Your conclusion is in error because the premise is in error: There is no resurrection at Christ's Return other than the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

How would they produce the descendants that will rebel against God and join Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom if they are glorified? The Lord taught that in the Resurrection we would be like the Angels, meaning...we would not be married. Which implies we will not have children.

they will... be marrying?? No, they won't either.

Please. Don't be absurd. I made the exact opposite point, and I am not sure why you could not understand it.

They will be in the "spiritual body" on that day also,

Agreed, but there is at least a period of seven years prior at which point they and we were glorified.

You won't support a resurrection, particularly the Rapture...at Christ's Return.

their flesh having been melted by God's consuming fire on that day, their eyes melting in their sockets, etc., like the example given in Zech.14.

Sounds more like Raiders of the Lost Ark than Scripture.

They too had some theological error that needed to be dealt with.

But their spirit will still... be alive, which is what Paul's "spiritual body" is about.

Sorry, no. The Rapture is a bodily resurrection in which the Church, all of her, is changed from this corruptible flesh to incorruptible, even as our Lord was glorified.

The idea of resurrection does NOT... mean automatic salvation in Christ, otherwise there would never be any thing such as a "resurrection of damnation" which Jesus proclaimed.

Never said it did.

But what you are failing to distinguish is between the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation. You are making all resurrection one general resurrection and Paul's teaching does not allow for that. Clearly the Church is raised in glorified bodies well before the Great White Throne Judgment where the damned will be raised again and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Secondly, you keep making the Return of Christ the time of resurrection yet you have no Scriptural basis for that. I have mentioned more than once that the only resurrection that takes place at the time of His Return is the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

That is the only one.

Salty: you're just being silly now.

I'm getting there, believe me, I'm getting there, lol.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

And that's all the time I have for now, Salty, I will get to your other posts, hopefully, before Christmas.

God bless.

[gdemoss]

I plan to single handedly populate the kingdom

[S.T. Ranger]

I plan to single handedly populate the kingdom

Might be a good idea to talk with your wife about this plan. And if you're not married...time to get busy finding one, lol.