Jehovah Witness... are they Christian?

[Willa]

I have attended a JW worship service and I wouldn't call them a cult. They make some very valid points.

I look in the Bible and I don't see scriptural evidence supporting the trinity or at least I can see how they interpret it that way. I am actually quite confused on the trinity issue because nowhere in the Bible does it say "He is three in one." So it's confusing.

Also they do not pay their clergy, I like that a lot. And they train their members to interact with the rest of the world, something a traditional church does not. I think learning to interact as a christian with the rest of the world is important and I think the church really fell flat on that.

I can also see how they can be precieved as a cult but I do not believe they are. They look and act and believe strange but isn't that the foundation of Christianity? Being seperate from the world?

But don't you find it cult like how they have added their own book, written from their own profit or founder ?

 

*shrug* In all honesty I have no room to judge them. That's Gods job. I wouldn't say they are a cult and I don't agree with what they did to the Bible either. God called us to love thy neighbor. He said LOVE thy neighbor, not judge, not love conditionally. I can see both good and bad in JW's. I think about how the world views Christians and how Christians view JW's. We aren't going to change their minds by hating them. 

 

Plus some of what they believe made sense. Like about the trinity, I was genuinely confused (thanks again for those verses, Willa). I don't see the problem in questioning Christianity as long as you do it with the right motives and the right mindset. The right motives and right mindset being, wanting to find the truth and what the Bible really says. 

 

I believe that Satan has distorted our interpretation of the Bible so that's why I like asking big questions like that, so I can know FOR SURE if the Bible really means that or something else. Does all this make sense?

We don't hate JWs. We hate deception and false doctrine that costs a person his or her salvation. It saddens us and angers us.

We don't hate gays/lesbians or other sinners. We do hate that they don't want us to call sin what the bible specificly names as sin and want to deny us the right to live by our beliefs. We believe what the bible states.

You have every right to question any beliefs. The Bereans searched the scriptures to see if these things were so. God recommends that you do that. But be sure and read the chapter the verse is in to read it in context. Do that with the verses I speak of as well.

[gray_robe]

Regarding the question in the thread title, I think it's hard to say if a person is, or is not a Christian based on the groups they belong to or the labels they apply to themselves.  The "Good" Samaritan had questionable theology (they argued about the correct place to worship) but Jesus still used a Samaritan as an example of what God is looking for, because the Samaritan (in the story) had a humble, loving spirit.

 

The sheep from the sheep and goats parable were suprised to find themselves rewarded in the end.  They didn't even realize that by helping strangers they were helping God.  Jesus made comments about how the first will be last and the last will be first when judgement comes, indicating that there could be some big surprises in how God chooses to judge the world.

 

And then there is the parable of the weeds and wheat growing together. I think it's like that in all groups.  There will always be a mixture of sincere and insincere growing together.  I think that's why teachings about looking past the outer appearances, to what's happening deep inside the individual's heart and then comparing what's in there to what we see in the teachings of Jesus, is the most reliable way of discerning if a JW (or anyone, really) is a Christian.

[lavey.online]

Warnings Against Denying the Son

1. John 2 : 18 - 27

 

¹⁸ Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. ¹⁹ They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

²⁰ But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. ²¹ I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. ²² Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. ²³ No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

²⁴ As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. ²⁵ And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

²⁶ I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. ²⁷ As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Edited January 9, 2015 by lavey.online

[Guest shiloh357]

Regarding the question in the thread title, I think it's hard to say if a person is, or is not a Christian based on the groups they belong to or the labels they apply to themselves.  The "Good" Samaritan had questionable theology (they argued about the correct place to worship) but Jesus still used a Samaritan as an example of what God is looking for, because the Samaritan (in the story) had a humble, loving spirit.

 

The sheep from the sheep and goats parable were suprised to find themselves rewarded in the end.  They didn't even realize that by helping strangers they were helping God.  Jesus made comments about how the first will be last and the last will be first when judgement comes, indicating that there could be some big surprises in how God chooses to judge the world.

 

And then there is the parable of the weeds and wheat growing together. I think it's like that in all groups.  There will always be a mixture of sincere and insincere growing together.  I think that's why teachings about looking past the outer appearances, to what's happening deep inside the individual's heart and then comparing what's in there to what we see in the teachings of Jesus, is the most reliable way of discerning if a JW (or anyone, really) is a Christian.

That doesn't really apply to groups where it is shown that they have aberrant false doctrine.  JW doctrine is false on the most fundamental and essential areas of Christian doctrine that it is impossible to consider them "Christian."

[gray_robe]

Hi Shiloh.  Sure, I wasn't really talking about "groups".  I was suggesting that even if a group doctrine can be shown to be wrong, individuals within that group can still show signs of sincerity.  A JW can, for example, believe that Jesus is not (or never was) just a man while at the same time being God, but is/was God only, even though he existed in a man's body for a time.  In that sense, yeah they have a problem with their doctrine.  Jesus was a man.  He was God.  Seperate but both at the same time.

 

However, I don't see that as a fundamental or essential flaw; just a doctrinal flaw.  From the JW perspective, they are not denying Jesus; they think they have sound religious doctrine.  Lots of religions do that.  Lots of people do that.  We all have trouble seeing our own faults at times and we don't like it when people accuse us of being stubborn or proud about seeing those faults.

 

Sure, I think it's important and helpful to realize that Jesus was fully human while being God at the same time, but from what I can see of Jesus' teachings, he seemed to be more concerned about the kind of behavior people had toward one another.  He put a lot of emphasis on things like love, materialism/greed, honesty, hypocrisy and sincerity.  I would say those things are far more fundamental than our pespective on whether Jesus was fully human or not.

 

He said that people could be forgiven for rejecting him (Jesus the man) but not for rejecting the holy spirit.  The holy spirit guides us to be more loving, kind, patient, understand etc towards others.  If someone has wrong theology (i.e. Jesus was not fully human) but shows fruits of the spirit in other areas of their life, I must assume that God's spirit IS working in that preson's life despite their wrong theology, just as the Good Samaritan showed love despite his wrong theology.

[Guest]

Regarding the question in the thread title....

 

I think it's hard to say if a person is, or is not a Christian....

 

based on the groups they belong to or the labels....

 

they apply to themselves....

 

 

Pretty

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

The same was in the beginning with God.

 

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

Much

 

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

 

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:1-5

 

It Is Either Jesus

 

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

 

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

 

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:10-12

 

Or The Highway

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:13-15

 

Pretty

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

 

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

Much

 

And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel,

 

sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.

 

And the people gave a shout, saying,

 

It is the voice of a god,

 

and not of a man.

 

And immediately the angel

 

of the Lord smote him,

 

because he gave not God the glory:

 

and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

 

But the word of God grew and multiplied. Acts 12:21-24

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh.  Sure, I wasn't really talking about "groups".  I was suggesting that even if a group doctrine can be shown to be wrong, individuals within that group can still show signs of sincerity.  A JW can, for example, believe that Jesus is not (or never was) just a man while at the same time being God, but is/was God only, even though he existed in a man's body for a time.  In that sense, yeah they have a problem with their doctrine.  Jesus was a man.  He was God.  Seperate but both at the same time.

 

 

 

Hi Gray,   I hear you, but that's not how cults work.  JWs are very much controlled in what they believe.   They don't study the Bible with a view to being led to the truth by the Holy Spirit.  The Bible means what their leaders say it means and they don't deviate to the right or to the left.  There is no freedom to hold a different view than the leadership.   They have been brainwashed that their salvation is in jeopardy if they accept any view that is not what the cult leadership tells them to believe. 

 

However, I don't see that as a fundamental or essential flaw; just a doctrinal flaw.

 

Respectfully, that IS a fundamental and essential flaw.  The correct identity of Jesus, His essential nature and His humanity is a  fundamental doctrine.  A flawed view of Jesus affects every other doctrine in the Bible.  Doctrines are not stand alone teachings they intersect and interlock.   How you view Jesus shapes how you look at the plan of redemption, the triune nature of God and Jesus' relationship to humanity.  It affects even how you look at Genesis 1 and the origin of life.  

 

From the JW perspective, they are not denying Jesus; they think they have sound religious doctrine.  Lots of religions do that.  Lots of people do that.  We all have trouble seeing our own faults at times and we don't like it when people accuse us of being stubborn or proud about seeing those faults.

 

From their perspective they may see their views as correct, but from an objective, biblical standpoint it can be easily shown that they are in egregious error on just about everything. 

 

Sure, I think it's important and helpful to realize that Jesus was fully human while being God at the same time, but from what I can see of Jesus' teachings, he seemed to be more concerned about the kind of behavior people had toward one another.  He put a lot of emphasis on things like love, materialism/greed, honesty, hypocrisy and sincerity.  I would say those things are far more fundamental than our pespective on whether Jesus was fully human or not.

 

Well you won'tget any help from the New Testament on that view.  The New Testament places a HUGE emphasis on know the correct way to view Jesus, who He is and what He has done.   The Gospel of John, the book of Colossians  the books of I and II John were all written to counteract the false teachings that were prevalent in the first century regarding the nature of Jesus, both His essential divine nature and His humanity.

 

He said that people could be forgiven for rejecting him (Jesus the man) but not for rejecting the holy spirit.  The holy spirit guides us to be more loving, kind, patient, understand etc towards others.  If someone has wrong theology (i.e. Jesus was not fully human) but shows fruits of the spirit in other areas of their life, I must assume that God's spirit IS working in that preson's life despite their wrong theology, just as the Good Samaritan showed love despite his wrong theology.

 

The JW's are not saved.  They are not born again and their theology makes it impossible for them to be genuine believers and for that reason, the Holy Spirit is not at work in them.   Your assumption is emotional, but not biblical.   Rejecting Jesus precludes someone from being born again.   The JW's have their own version of Jesus and do not serve the Jesus of Scripture.  They are outside of Christ and outside of salvation.

[Guest]

That doesn't really apply to groups where it is shown that they have aberrant false doctrine. 

 

JW doctrine is false on the most fundamental and essential areas of Christian doctrine

 

that it is impossible to consider them "Christian."

 

 

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

[gray_robe]

Whether or not any of us is saved is up to God so I'm pretty open to whatever he decides about it.

 

As for people believing only what they are told, (and threatened with eternal punishment if they deviate that kind of thing happens in many groups regardless of denominational affiliation.  It's an extremely tempting method for convincing people not to stray from the status quo of whatever denomination or doctrines they happen to support.  I think it's important for all of us, everywhere, to contantly re-examine if that kind of thinking has crept into our own lives somewhere along the way.

 

That's why I think the cstandard in all these judgements must be the teachings of Jesus.  For example, you talk about misunderstanding Jesus, but I think we were discussing two different aspects of Jesus.  I was talking about the teachings of Jesus, (which include examples of people who have wrong understanding on theological issues while still being right with God based on their sincere, humble, loving spirit) while you seemed to focus on a certainty that Jesus was fully human while being fully divine.  I think having a correct understanding in both areas is helpful, but that a misunderstanding in one area does not equate to a misunderstanding in all areas.

 

None of us has perfect understanding of all truth.  We all struggle with our problem areas and God attempts to work with us in those areas to the extent that we allow him to.  I think we can do the same thing.  When Jesus was rejected at a village, his disciples asked him, "Should we call down fire from heaven n them"? And he responded, "You don't know what kind of spirit you have.  I've not come to destroy people but to save them".

 

A person may have wrong theology which we find repugnent.  They may be stubborn and frustrating in their unwillingness to see the truth. But what about areas where they ARE responding to God's spirit?  I suggested that something like practical acts of loving kindness could be an area where we could find some agreement with just about any Christian.  If we get into the habit of writing others off as lost because we disagree with even a single part of their theology, then in order to be consistent we'd need to judge as lost every single person on the planet who does not completely agree with our interpretations.

[Guest shiloh357]

Whether or not any of us is saved is up to God so I'm pretty open to whatever he decides about it.

 

 

 

No, it is up to each of us.  God doesn't pick who is or is not saved.  He offers salvation to us and He tells us how to be saved.  Those who do not obey the Gospel are not saved.   So it is not some mystery.  

 

As for people believing only what they are told, (and threatened with eternal punishment if they deviate that kind of thing happens in many groups regardless of denominational affiliation.

 

Name ONE mainstream denomination that threatens people with hell if they do not agree 100% with what their preacher/teacher says. 

 

 

That's why I think the cstandard in all these judgements must be the teachings of Jesus.  For example, you talk about misunderstanding Jesus, but I think we were discussing two different aspects of Jesus.  I was talking about the teachings of Jesus, (which include examples of people who have wrong understanding on theological issues while still being right with God based on their sincere, humble, loving spirit) while you seemed to focus on a certainty that Jesus was fully human while being fully divine.  I think having a correct understanding in both areas is helpful, but that a misunderstanding in one area does not equate to a misunderstanding in all areas.

 

 

None of us can claim to have 100% correct theology.  We are not infallible and none of us can claim to have a perfect understanding of Jesus' teachings or any teachings of the New Testament. Fortunately, salvation doesn't hinge on being 100% on anything.  

 

But JW's  have an demonstrably incorrect theology where the teachings of  and about Jesus is concerned.  Their theology isn't ultimately based on the teachings of Jesus, but on the teachings and particular doctrines of their group.  They are in egregious error on basic teachings that make salvation impossible for them.  They cannot obey the Gospel as the Gospel isn't part of their theology.

 

A person may have wrong theology which we find repugnent.  They may be stubborn and frustrating in their unwillingness to see the truth. But what about areas where they ARE responding to God's spirit?

 

God's Spirit isn't in their cult.   They are not responding to God's Spirit on any level whatsoever.

 

 

I suggested that something like practical acts of loving kindness could be an area where we could find some agreement with just about any Christian.  If we get into the habit of writing others off as lost because we disagree with even a single part of their theology, then in order to be consistent we'd need to judge as lost every single person on the planet who does not completely agree with our interpretations.

 

Once again, the New Testament doesn't agree with you.  There is a lot of instruction telling us how to spot false doctrines and those who teach them and how we should respond to them.    We are not judging anyone, but we are to point out false doctrine and to lead people out of it.   JW's are not believers and no one who follows the JW teachings devoutly will go to heaven. 

 

The worst thing we can do is just leave it to chance that they might actually make it to heaven.   That is the unkindest, the most unloving thing we can do.