Sevenseas Posted January 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2015 yeah, that really addresses an entire nation in captivity. righto Jesus teachings are spirit? nah...many of them are very practicle....did you know that Jesus actually ate after His resurrection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 14, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hi Seven Listen, if I am fasting and I am invited for dinner...and that has happened...I would simply state it is inconvenient at the time...but I would appreciate another date? To me, this approach is consistent with the spirit of what Jesus was getting at with regard to efforts to make sure others don't find out. I'm happy to see we could find at least some agreement on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted January 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2015 Jesus' teachings are spirit; that means he gave general principles which act as guidelines for how we should behave as Christians. He did it this way because it's simply not possible, or practical for him to give a rule about every single situation for every single person in creation. laugh...cry.....I'm not decided...who do you think you are addressing here? someone in grade 3? see, the problem is that you are not really discussing, you are teaching and I don't think you should be. That's just me being 100% up front honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 14, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Thanks for posting the verse. What's the point of anointing your head with oil and washing your face, so that your fasting will not be obvious, if you're just gonna tell people about it anyway. Sure, they may ask if you want a sandwich, but that's hardly reason to go against what Jesus is saying here about NOT making the fast obvious. It's also interesting to note that he says "but only to your Father". I don't think I'm adding or taking away anything here; just looking at what's actually written. The adding and taking away is what happens when people say, "but that's not what Jesus meant" and the proceed to do the exact opposite of what he's said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Thanks for posting the verse. What's the point of anointing your head with oil and washing your face, so that your fasting will not be obvious, if you're just gonna tell people about it anyway. Sure, they may ask if you want a sandwich, but that's hardly reason to go against what Jesus is saying here about NOT making the fast obvious. The point is wrapped up in the specific issue Jesus was addressing and that was the self-righteousness of Pharisees who fasted to be seen and praised by men. They fasted twice and a week and everyone knew they fasted. The extra-bibclical fasts that Jesus is referring to here were not some big secret. Jesus' point was that they were fasting to be seen and He is saying that when you fast, don't make it obvious. Jesus didn't say you can't mention it. He never said that. You are adding to the text, as sevenseas has pointed out. It's also interesting to note that he says "but only to your Father". I don't think I'm adding or taking away anything here; just looking at what's actually written. The adding and taking away is what happens when people say, "but that's not what Jesus meant" and the proceed to do the exact opposite of what he's said. You are the one discarding what Jesus meant and instead employing a hyper-literal approach to the text. You are ignoring the occasion for why Jesus said what He said. Jesus' point was not that fasting has to be something no one else knows about . That would have made no sense to a the listeners because they were used to public fasts and annual fasts and weekly fasts that were not secret at all. Jesus' only point was not to do it for the praise of men. That's all He is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Regarding "corporate fasting", the same principle still applies. Let's say you have 3 friends who agree to fast together. You'd still want to keep it quiet from anyone NOT participating in the fast. That's not how corporate fasts worked in the first century and that's not how corporate fasts work today. Churches fast and even people who don't go to that church, know that they are fasting because churches advertise calls for a corporate fasts in their bulletins and on their websites. It's not like its' going to be some big secret. Jesus' teachings are spirit; that means he gave general principles which act as guidelines for how we should behave as Christians. He did it this way because it's simply not possible, or practical for him to give a rule about every single situation for every single person in creation. Jesus' teachings are immensely practical and He provided practical steps for fasting that keep it from being a public, obnoxious display. If someone finds out about the nice thing you did without your intention for them to do so, then that's different. As Shiloh said, God isn't stupid. He knows the difference between people who respect Jesus' teachings and those who give lip service. In order to respect Jesus' teachings, you have to know how to correctly handle them. Still waiting to see that from you. You don't even accept what the Bible says about the plan of salvation, much less on something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 14, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." These are two completely contradictory sentences. It's not me who's adding to Jesus' words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." These are two completely contradictory sentences. It's not me who's adding to Jesus' words. No, it only appears contradictory because you are not really being honest about what I said. I have clarified my position numerous times. You are not operating from a place of integrity, but are showing that you can't really be trusted in a debate. You are intentionally cherry picking my words and fortunately, anyone who reads this thread will be able to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 15, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." These are two completely contradictory sentences. It's not me who's adding to Jesus' words. No, it only appears contradictory because you are not really being honest about what I said. It's not a matter of being honest or dishonest, but rather just looking at what you've said. You feel I've misrepresented you, so I'll post some direct quotes from you. -------------- post# 45 Jesus didn't say you can't mention it [personal fasting]. He never said that. post# 25 ...if we are placed in a position that we have to decline an offer of dinner or something and we have no choice but to be honest about why we are declining... post#25 I see no problem if someone mentions the fact that they were fasting. post#25 ...they get a little nosy, I see nothing wrong with politely explaining what you're doing and that you will be glad to join them when it's over. post#25 The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast ------------- These quotes are only from two posts. I could probably list 20 examples of you saying the same thing all throughout this thread. In every case, you've got some convenient reason for why it's ok to let others know about your fasting. If they get a little nosy? Tell them about your fasting. If they invite you to dinner? Tell them about your fasting. If they eat in front of you? Tell them about your fasting. You've listed conditions where the only way you could possibly keep from telling others about your fasting is to shut yourself away in private the whole time, which makes Jesus' comments about anointing your head with oil and washing your face completely useless. You talk about having "no choice" but to tell about your fasting if someone offers you a bit of food. Really? No choice? Obviously there is a deeper issue here if you honestly believe that someone inviting you to dinner equates to forcing you to talk about your fasting. Even sevenseas, who quite strongly disagrees with just about everything I've said, still had enough sense to realize we could just make up some excuse like, "I've got other things to deal with at the moment but I'd like to take you up on the offer at another time". So, no, there's not the "appearance" of a contradiction in your words and Jesus' words. A side by side comparison shows the contradiction to be quite genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." These are two completely contradictory sentences. It's not me who's adding to Jesus' words. No, it only appears contradictory because you are not really being honest about what I said. It's not a matter of being honest or dishonest, but rather just looking at what you've said. You feel I've misrepresented you, so I'll post some direct quotes from you. -------------- post# 45 Jesus didn't say you can't mention it [personal fasting]. He never said that. post# 25 ...if we are placed in a position that we have to decline an offer of dinner or something and we have no choice but to be honest about why we are declining... post#25 I see no problem if someone mentions the fact that they were fasting. post#25 ...they get a little nosy, I see nothing wrong with politely explaining what you're doing and that you will be glad to join them when it's over. post#25 The Lord is pretty smart and he can tell the difference between the need to let someone know so that they don't keep bringing food around or tempting you to break your fast ------------- These quotes are only from two posts. I could probably list 20 examples of you saying the same thing all throughout this thread. In every case, you've got some convenient reason for why it's ok to let others know about your fasting. If they get a little nosy? Tell them about your fasting. If they invite you to dinner? Tell them about your fasting. If they eat in front of you? Tell them about your fasting. You've listed conditions where the only way you could possibly keep from telling others about your fasting is to shut yourself away in private the whole time, which makes Jesus' comments about anointing your head with oil and washing your face completely useless. Yes you have misrepresented me and cherry picking quotes from me and ripping them from their context only amplifies my claim. Those reasons don't contradict what Jesus was talking about. Jesus never said that it was wrong for anyone to know you are fasting. That's the problem. You are running from the assumption that Jesus claimed that if anyone is fasting, that is has to be a secret that you can't mention for any reason, and no one who is honest about the text agrees with you. You are trying to paint my comments to be something that they are not, and fortunately, no one who has read this thread agrees with you. If a person is honest about the text, they will understand that Jesus' comments were limited in scope to counter the self-righteousness of the Pharisees and their attempt to make a display of fasting. Jesus' comments were limited to that issue. You are, as has been pointed out by more than one person, taking Jesus' comments further than they should be taken to the point that if you mention your fast for any reason, you are violating Jesus' commandment. Furthermore, you unfairly assign motives to a person if they mention the fact that they are fasting as if the ONLY reason a person would mention fasting is to garner undue praise. Some people have close friends, accountability partners who they depend on to help them remain committed in their walk with the Lord, and they might mention to that friend that they might need their help to remain committed to the fast and to pray for them. They might mention it to family members or relatives so that people are tempting them with food, and that might even be necessary with friends or co-workers if the occasion arises. None of that violates Jesus' commandment, nor does it make it useless to dress up and not give the appearance of fasting. You are trying to set conditions that you are not authorized or even qualified to set for others in their walk with God. You talk about having "no choice" but to tell about your fasting if someone offers you a bit of food. Really? No choice? Obviously there is a deeper issue here if you honestly believe that someone inviting you to dinner equates to forcing you to talk about your fasting. This goes back to what I said about integrity. You picked part of what I said and not the whole statement: "It's not necessarily saying that it has to be kept a secret or else you will lose your reward, though. The loss of reward stems from making an ostentatious display in order to receive accolades. If that's the motive, then you have your reward. Rather, we dress and carry ourselves so that it is not apparent that we are fasting, so that we are not seeking attention and we keep it to ourselves and if we are placed in a position that we have to decline an offer of dinner or something and we have no choice but to be honest about why we are declining, the Lord is wise enough to take that into account. It is the attempt at garnering undue attention that Jesus is addressing." I was not saying that we never, ever have a choice, but to tell people, but I was saying that if we are questioned to the point that we need to be honest, that the Lord takes that into account and I was comparing that with Jesus' command not to make our fasting a thing where draw attention to ourselves. There is a difference between mentioning the fact that you're fasting with making a display of it. Anyone willing to be honest about the text can see that. Unfortunately, you are not willing to be honest about that because you have some agenda you are trying to push and that is more important to you, evidently, than a competent and intelligent interpretation of Jesus' words. Even sevenseas, who quite strongly disagrees with just about everything I've said, still had enough sense to realize we could just make up some excuse like, "I've got other things to deal with at the moment but I'd like to take you up on the offer at another time". And I completely agree with sevenseas on that. But my point is that even if you did mention the fact you are fasting, it doesn't violate any commandment from Jesus because Jesus never said that you are prohibited from even mentioning it. You are adding something to Jesus' words that He didn't say. So, no, there's not the "appearance" of a contradiction in your words and Jesus' words. A side by side comparison shows the contradiction to be quite genuine. No, it is a contradiction that you are manufacturing. I would point out that Jesus said something else similar to this: In Matt. 6:5-6 Jesus says not to be like the hypocrites who love to pray long, loud prayers in public and in the synagogues so that they can be seen by men. Jesus said, that when we pray, go into an inner room and pray to the Father who is in secret and the Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. If we were to approach that passage like you approach the passage on fasting, then by using the hyper-literal standard of interpretation you are employing, praying in public would be wrong. If we take your approach if a person leads prayer in a Sunday School class, at a Bible study, or during a Church service, they would be in violation of this passage. If we take your approach to the Scriptures, then a Father leading his family in prayer at a meal or family devotional time would be disobeying Jesus. Your method of interpretation would completely ignore the occasion for Jesus' words. He is countering the self-righteousness of the Pharisee and is not saying that all public prayer is wrong. It's praying to be seen and to garner praise that Jesus is addressing. The same principle is in play where fasting is concerned as well. The fact that we don't view Matt. 6: 5-6 as a prohibition against public prayers, shows that your approach to the text of Scripture is internally inconsistent and should be rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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