gray_robe Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 In Matthew 9 Jesus tells a parable about pouring new wine into old bottles. Because the "bottles" are old and hard they leave no room for expansion when the new wine is poured in. As a result they crack and break. However, new bottles are soft and flexible so they do have room to expand with the new wine. As a result they do not crack and break. I believe this parable is making reference to how we respond to Jesus' teachings. A good deal of what Jesus taught is radical, even confrontational. Jesus was all about change. He talked about being born again, becoming like little children with a fresh new sense of wonder for the values of the kingdom of Heaven. Much of what he said challenges our old ways of thinking. He challenged our pride, greed, materialism, laziness, and respectability. Some people had/have problems with these teachings and I believe this is what happened with the pharisees. They just would not change with the times. They were stuck in their old, hardened ways of thinking and as a result their "cracking" took the form of deep hatred and anger for the source of those teachings. With hindsight we can see pretty clearly just how wrong the pharisees were, but what about when it comes to ourselves? Is that kind of thing still happening today? Do we still find old inflexible bottles cracking when it comes to pouring in the new teachings of Jesus and his new Kingdom? I think so but maybe it would be helpful to discuss some practical examples to get a better idea of how it works. I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret. Not only should we keep it secret but we should take steps to make sure no one knows. Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired. And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so. Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 In Matthew 9 Jesus tells a parable about pouring new wine into old bottles. Because the "bottles" are old and hard they leave no room for expansion when the new wine is poured in. As a result they crack and break. However, new bottles are soft and flexible so they do have room to expand with the new wine. As a result they do not crack and break. I believe this parable is making reference to how we respond to Jesus' teachings. A good deal of what Jesus taught is radical, even confrontational. Jesus was all about change. He talked about being born again, becoming like little children with a fresh new sense of wonder for the values of the kingdom of Heaven. Much of what he said challenges our old ways of thinking. He challenged our pride, greed, materialism, laziness, and respectability. The new wine of the Gospel of the Kingdom which Jesus was preaching. The Pharisees' opposition to Jesus had less to do with old ways of thinking or resistance to change from those old ways, and had more to do with the political consequences of a Messiah. Jesus wasn't really teaching anything that hadn't already been contained in the Law of Moses. Jesus was a threat to the pharisees because they were tasked with keeping "the peace." Along with the Sadducees, the pharisees were Roman puppets and their resistance to Jesus stemmed from that fact that Jesus was being hailed as the Messiah and the last thing the religious leaders wanted was a Messiah to challenge the authority of Rome and the imperial cult. Their main resistance to Jesus was the political threat He posed. They used theology as a pretext for opposing Him and attempting to discredit Him to the people but their main opposition to Him was the claim that He was the Messiah. Some people had/have problems with these teachings and I believe this is what happened with the pharisees. They just would not change with the times. They were stuck in their old, hardened ways of thinking and as a result their "cracking" took the form of deep hatred and anger for the source of those teachings. Actually, the resistance to Jesus stems from a rejection of His Person, and who He is. It is not a matter of changing with the times. That has nothing to do with it. They hated Jesus not because he was teaching something new, but because He was the fulfillment of something old. He was the promised Messiah spoken of by the prophets and their shaky posture with Rome was hard enough to maintain without another unstable factor being added to the mix. With hindsight we can see pretty clearly just how wrong the pharisees were, but what about when it comes to ourselves? Is that kind of thing still happening today? Do we still find old inflexible bottles cracking when it comes to pouring in the new teachings of Jesus and his new Kingdom? I think so but maybe it would be helpful to discuss some practical examples to get a better idea of how it works. I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret. Not only should we keep it secret but we should take steps to make sure no one knows. Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired. And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so. Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting. Well, you need to look at what Jesus said in context. Jesus was talking about people who went to extremes to make themselves look like they were fasting. They stopped taking care of themselves, they made themselves look poorly as if they were suffering immensely during a fast so make it apparent and noticeable and by doing so, people would see them as very pious and holy. They were exaggerating their appearance in order to gain the glory that only belonged to God. Jesus' wasn't saying, "when you fast," don't ever say a word to anyone." That wasn't his point. You might have to mention your fasting if someone were to invite you to dinner or offer you something to eat. That's wasn't what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said, to fast secretly and don't make it appear to be that your fasting. He wasn't saying our fasting needs to be top secret. If you fast, get up take a shower, brush your teeth, do your laundry, press your shirts and dress up. When you fast, put a smile on your face, a spring in your step and a song in your heart and no one needs to know the difference. The point is not that if you mention fasting, you have done something wrong. The point is that you should not brag about it, or try to impress people into thinking your some kind spiritual giant. You should not turn your fasting into an ostentatious display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 I see this as meaning that we need to be a new creation in Christ, where the old man is insufficient for this purpose He has for us. As the old man dies, the new man can hold the "new wine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,244 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 It is true that tradition can be the old wineskin. When people cling to their churches traditions instead of to Christ, they become inflexible. I remember a Lutheran church splitting over their using trumpets in the Halleluia Chorus played at Christmas. People were saying that it wasn't "Lutheran" to do so. Others pointed to the use of them in Scripture, but it still wasn't Lutheran to do so. Yes, it seems silly, but it actually happened. Some people become so enamored by the trappings of traditions that they lose hold of, or never truely had hold of, the Head which is Christ. Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide is Lutheran, so they even lost that, their foundation. The best interpretation of the Scriptures in question is definitely Shiloh's. I believe that becoming like little children refers to our being totally dependant on, relying on and trusting in Christ for salvation and living the Christian life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 The point is not that if you mention fasting, you have done something wrong. The point is that you should not brag about it or try to impress people into thinking your some kind spiritual giant. You should not turn your fasting into an ostentatious display. Whether the admission of fasting to others is something wrong or not is probably between the individual and God, though Jesus did phrase it as an instruction for his followers to, well...follow. He didn't say we'd be punished for letting others know about our secret discipline, but only that we'd lose any reward in heaven as a result. So yeah, sure, if someone forces us to confess to fasting by inviting us to a dinner or offering us a sandwich, we could let them know, so long as we're fine to settle for a temporary Earthly reward. Or, one could politely decline the dinner invitation or pretend not to be hungry or make up some other excuse to maintain the integrity of the fast and get the eternal reward. I mean, I kinda have the idea that fasting is something we choose to do just because we want to, so maintaining the secret of the fast is also something we should do just because we want to. But relating it back to the topic of being able to expand with Jesus' teachings, I think the whole point of Jesus even giving this command to keep it secret in the first place is because he knows what we humans are like. We rarely want to keep quite about our own goodness. We like compliments and we like respectability. We like it when others think well of us. Because of this it's tempting to find ways to avoid the teaching and in some cases to even argue against the teaching, quite openly, while in some extreme cases, angrily. When this happens, I believe it's it "old bottle" mentality creeping in. Anyway, Shiloh, thanks for your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The point is not that if you mention fasting, you have done something wrong. The point is that you should not brag about it or try to impress people into thinking your some kind spiritual giant. You should not turn your fasting into an ostentatious display. Whether the admission of fasting to others is something wrong or not is probably between the individual and God, though Jesus did phrase it as an instruction for his followers to, well...follow. He didn't say we'd be punished for letting others know about our secret discipline, but only that we'd lose any reward in heaven as a result. So yeah, sure, if someone forces us to confess to fasting by inviting us to a dinner or offering us a sandwich, we could let them know, so long as we're fine to settle for a temporary Earthly reward. Or, one could politely decline the dinner invitation or pretend not to be hungry or make up some other excuse to maintain the integrity of the fast and get the eternal reward. I mean, I kinda have the idea that fasting is something we choose to do just because we want to, so maintaining the secret of the fast is also something we should do just because we want to. You are taking an unwarranted, hyper-literal approach instead of understanding what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying that if you make yourself appear to be fasting in order to gain the praise of men, you have your reward. He didn't say if someone finds out you're fasting, sorry no reward. You need to pay attention to context and try to understand the point being made. You only lose the heavenly reward if you decide to make your fasting an outward display meant to garner human accolades. But relating it back to the topic of being able to expand with Jesus' teachings, I think the whole point of Jesus even giving this command to keep it secret in the first place is because he knows what we humans are like. We rarely want to keep quite about our own goodness. We like compliments and we like respectability. We like it when others think well of us. Because of this it's tempting to find ways to avoid the teaching and in some cases to even argue against the teaching, quite openly, while in some extreme cases, angrily. When this happens, I believe it's it "old bottle" mentality creeping in. It is important to understand the climate in which Jesus' teachings occurred. Jesus is primarily speaking against the pride of the religious leaders of the time period who always managed to create loopholes to exempt themselves from obedience while maintaining the appearance of piety, and at the same time burdening the people with extra observances and commands that they, themselves, would not follow. They loved the honor and respect as people bowed to them in the streets and they enjoyed the wealth and posh standard of living that accompanied their position. Their prideful displays extended well beyond fasting and included things like long, loud prayers, and enlarging their phylacteries and the tassels on their garments so that their observances would be noticed. That really has nothing to do with any kind of "bottle" mentality. That is a completely different issue. Onelight has it right when he points to the fact that the new bottles refer to the regenerated person who is able to receive the gift of the salvation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 I see this as meaning that we need to be a new creation in Christ, where the old man is insufficient for this purpose He has for us. As the old man dies, the new man can hold the "new wine". Hi one light, Yeah, the old/new wine skins parable is very similar to the "be born again" or "become like little children" teachings. However, I find the wine skin teaching interesting in that Jesus includes an example of what happens when we DON'T conform to his teachings. We crack and break. We can certainly see that happening with the Pharisees. They became enraged to the point that they were willing to murder Jesus in order to finally shut him up. His teachings exposed their hypocrisy, their greed, and their stubborn refusal to change. They believed in God and yet they rejected God at the same time despite some amazing evidence. I think a similar kind of spiritual damage can happen to us as well if we refuse to change, especially if the new wine keeps being poured and poured into us while we are inflexible. I suspect the pressure would just keep building up. Maybe that's one of the lessons from the parable, too. When people show themselves to be inflexible it's better to just stop giving them the new wine or they only crack and break. I've never thought of the parable this way before, but what a frightening thought, that we could get to a point where God no longer feels it's worth giving us new wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Jesus is primarily speaking against the pride of the religious leaders of the time period who always managed to create loopholes to exempt themselves from obedience while maintaining the appearance of piety, A wonderful description of what often happens when it comes to the teachings of Jesus, and what appears to be an unintentional piece of irony at that. Humans are humans in any age and the wisdom of Jesus is just as good for us today as it was for those guys back then. That's just how awesome Jesus was. Even stuff said waaaay back two thousand years ago can still be relevant for us today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think a similar kind of spiritual damage can happen to us as well if we refuse to change, especially if the new wine keeps being poured and poured into us while we are inflexible. I suspect the pressure would just keep building up. Maybe that's one of the lessons from the parable, too. When people show themselves to be inflexible it's better to just stop giving them the new wine or they only crack and break. I've never thought of the parable this way before, but what a frightening thought, that we could get to a point where God no longer feels it's worth giving us new wine. What new wine is being poured out today that people are inflexible about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Hi Shiloh, I started us off with an example of Jesus' teaching about secret fasting which, from my experience, many Christians have become inflexible about. Perhaps you can give your own example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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