gray_robe Posted January 15, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 you have misrepresented me Nope. There's no misrepresentation. Here's what Jesus said: Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Here's what you've said: post#25 I see no problem if someone mentions the fact that they were fasting. Put them together and you get the statement I made in an earlier post: Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." The problem, for you, is that I've taken out all the jargon and just put the most basic, simple concepts side by side. What Jesus said and what you say. The quotes are not taken out of context. They are very much in context. It's just that without all the justifications clouding the issues, the contradiction in your argument becomes glaringly apparent. That's not a misrepresentation. It's discernment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 you have misrepresented me Nope. There's no misrepresentation. Here's what Jesus said: Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Here's what you've said: post#25 I see no problem if someone mentions the fact that they were fasting. Put them together and you get the statement I made in an earlier post: Shiloh's position in a nutshell: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know. Oh, and also feel free to tell others that you are fasting if a convenient opportunity comes up." The problem, for you, is that I've taken out all the jargon and just put the most basic, simple concepts side by side. What Jesus said and what you say. The quotes are not taken out of context. They are very much in context. It's just that without all the justifications clouding the issues, the contradiction in your argument becomes glaringly apparent. That's not a misrepresentation. It's discernment. What you have done is ignore the actual meaning of the passage. Anyone cherry pick and rip things out of context and make things appear the way they want them to appear. You're doing what false teachers always do. You are as deceitful and sloppy with my words as you are the words of Jesus. I am appealing to the overall context. You have an agenda and I don't. I am taking Jesus for what He meant. Your approach to the text is creates a false interpretation and no one who is honest about the text will ascribe to your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 15, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Jesus' point was not that fasting has to be something no one else knows about . That would have made no sense to a the listeners because they were used to public fasts and annual fasts and weekly fasts that were not secret at all. I'm glad you mention this, because I think it gets back to my original point in the OP. Before Jesus gave this instruction about keeping a fast secret, it was common for people to talk about their fasting. Perhaps some people realized, as a result of their own sincerity, that they should keep their fasting secret so that they don't fall into the trap of talking about it for the respectability that comes from letting others know of our spiritual disciplines. It's so easy to convince ourselves that we have good reasons to talk about our self discipline. It's not like we're boasting about it or anything. We're just letting people know about it within certain contexts. For example, if someone asks me if I want a sandwich then I can tell them I'm fasting. It's not like I'm boasting. I'm just letting them know that I'm currently suffering for the sake of my spirituality. But Jesus could see the problem. He could see how easy it is to lie to ourselves about how innocent our motives are when most of the time we're just subtly boasting while disguising it with convenient doctrines about how we have "no choice" but to boast...err..not boast...I mean, to "mention" it. Yeah that sounds better. When we have no choice but to "mention" it. So he made a rule about it. When you fast, take steps to keep it secret. What a shocking rule, though. How will people know that we are spiritual if we're not allowed to talk about our fasting or charitable giving? What if people assume we don't do those things? We can't just let them assume something untrue about us. We have to tell them that we DO fast and give so they won't think unwell of us. People want his grace. They want his peace. They want his forgiveness, his salvation and his eternal life. But they don't want his discipline. They don't want the "literal" part where he says "do this" or "don't do that". The double mindedness leads to cracked bottles because they refuse to expand with the new wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 15, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Jesus' point was not that fasting has to be something no one else knows about . That would have made no sense to a the listeners because they were used to public fasts and annual fasts and weekly fasts that were not secret at all. I'm glad you mention this, because I think it gets back to my original point in the OP. Before Jesus gave this instruction about keeping a fast secret, it was common for people to talk about their fasting. Perhaps some people realized, as a result of their own sincerity, that they should keep their fasting secret so that they don't fall into the trap of talking about it for the respectability that comes from letting others know of our spiritual disciplines. It's so easy to convince ourselves that we have good reasons to talk about our self discipline. It's not like we're boasting about it or anything. We're just letting people know about it within certain contexts. For example, if someone asks me if I want a sandwich then I can tell them I'm fasting. It's not like I'm boasting. I'm just letting them know that I'm currently suffering for the sake of my spirituality. But Jesus could see the problem. He could see how easy it is to lie to ourselves about how innocent our motives are when most of the time we're just subtly boasting while disguising it with convenient doctrines about how we have "no choice" but to boast...err..not boast...I mean, to "mention" it. Yeah that sounds better. When we have no choice but to "mention" it. So he made a rule about it. When you fast, take steps to keep it secret. What a shocking rule, though. How will people know that we are spiritual if we're not allowed to talk about our fasting or charitable giving? What if people assume we don't do those things? We can't just let them assume something untrue about us. We have to tell them that we DO fast and give so they won't think unwell of us. People want his grace. They want his peace. They want his forgiveness, his salvation and his eternal life. But they don't want his discipline. They don't want the "literal" part where he says "do this" or "don't do that". The double mindedness leads to cracked bottles because they refuse to expand with the new wine. Any particular reason you use the word bottles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 15, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Any particular reason you use the word bottles? I usually read the KJV, which uses "bottles". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted January 16, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2015 I have the picture from scripture that the religious leaders of the day were doing a lot more than just telling a friend or family member that they were fasting. What I gather is that they put themselves on a very exaggerated PUBLIC DISPLAY. Seeing someone walking down up and down the street with disheveled hair and an exaggerated sad face and a large sign on them, would certainly call attention to that person. Jesus was aiming at the fact that they were attracting attention to themselves out in the middle of the street. To be noticed by the public as a whole. Not in a private setting among family or friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 16, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 I have the picture from scripture that the religious leaders of the day were doing a lot more than just telling a friend or family member that they were fasting. What I gather is that they put themselves on a very exaggerated PUBLIC DISPLAY. Seeing someone walking down up and down the street with disheveled hair and an exaggerated sad face and a large sign on them, would certainly call attention to that person. Jesus was aiming at the fact that they were attracting attention to themselves out in the middle of the street. To be noticed by the public as a whole. Not in a private setting among family or friends. Hi giggling. Thanks for your comments. It's been suggested, to me, several times now that what's most important when trying to interpret the meaning of what Jesus taught, is to look at what he's actually said. Otherwise we could become guilty of adding or taking away. I don't see Jesus saying anything about "telling more than just a friend or family" when it comes to fasting. Sure the hypocrites would "disfigure" their faces or keep an untidy appearance to let others know there was a problem, perhaps in the hopes that someone would either ask them, "ohh what's wrong" or even just to assume they were fasting. But what's been suggested here by some people goes well beyond implying assumptions. Skip the assumptions and just come right out telling people that we are fasting. The point of anointing the head with oil and washing the face etc is so that others will not know. These actions presume that you will not also go out and talk about your fasting, otherwise the oil and washing of the face become pointless. The heart is deceitful above all things. We tell ourselves that we're not boasting or trying to convince others to think well of us by telling them how we suffer for our faith. We just "mention" our fasting to friends and family, and maybe co-workers, and maybe church members, oh yeah and maybe complete strangers if we feel the circumstances call for it. We tell ourselves it's not really boasting if the correct circumstances come along. For example, it's not really boasting if someone asks us if we want a soda pop, and we say, "no thanks. I'm not eating or drinking anything today". Perhaps some of us may even convince ourselves that such a confession could lead to a chance to witness to the person we're talking to. We COULD just say, "no thanks" or "nah, I'm trying to reduce my sugar intake today" or whatever. But instead, we choose to say "confess" that we are suffering for our faith. Why? Think about it. Just because the opportunity presents itself doesn't mean we have to talk about it and yet we still do. Isn't it because we convince ourselves that it's not really boasting if someone else brings it up first? Look deep down inside and ask yourself if you really believe that's what Jesus meant. Also, Jesus was not only addressing the bad old pharasees or the religious leaders of his time. This is from the sermon on the mount; teachings for those who would be his disciples. That means these teachings are specifically for those who want to follow Jesus. These teachings let us know what kind of behavior Jesus expects from his followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The problem with your approach, gray robe is that you are characterizing any possible mention of fasting as "boasting" when it is not boasting and not a backdoor approach to gaining praise. You are assigning values and motives to others when you don't have the right to do that. What's more is that you are ignoring the most basic context and the occasion for Jesus' comments, so you are adding to the Word of God by claiming that Jesus taught secret fasting, which He didn't. Jesus never said to keep our fasting a secret. All He said was not to use fasting, prayer or giving as means of garnering praise. Jesus' words about prayer could also be misinterpreted as commandment never to pray in public. You have yet to address that issue. Do you think that Jesus' remarks on going into you inner chamber to pray means that a father who leads his family in prayer over meals or in a family devotion is violating Scripture??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hi Shiloh, The problem with your approach, gray robe is that you are characterizing any possible mention of fasting as "boasting" when it is not boasting and not a backdoor approach to gaining praise. Well, you don't know if it's boasting or not for sure, since you don't know what's in the heart of each person each time they "mention" their fasting to others. However, I have suggested that it IS a "backdoor" approach to gaining praise, based on what Jesus said. I could be wrong about that, but then again maybe Jesus was wrong to suggesting keeping quiet about it, too? You say it's not boasting, but when I look at the examples you give for why you mention fasting, I just can't see them as good enough reason to go against the instructions Jesus gave about keeping it secret. Let's take another look at what Jesus said: "Anoint your head with oil and wash your face so it will not be obvious that you are fasting and only God in Heaven will know". Anointing your head with oil and washing your face are not metaphors or stories. They are literal, physical actions which have specific purpose. The purpose is to give the appearance that one is NOT fasting. It would make no sense for Jesus to give these instructions, only to have someone go talking about their fasting. Washing your face to appear as though you are not fasting, and then talking about your fasting are two contradictory actions. Your interpretation, that it IS okay to talk about fasting, makes Jesus' instructions of no effect. In essence, you have side-stepped the spirit of the teaching on the basis of a technicality that Jesus did not use the exact words, "you should not talk about your fasting even if someone invites you to dinner". Lets pretend it's Steve's birthday and his friends want to throw a surprise birthday party for him. You are invited as well, but they know you have a tendency to talk a little too much, so the organizer gives you these instructions, "We're having a surprise party for Steve. If you see him, don't act suspicious. Just act normal so he won't suspect something is up". Later that evening, when Steve shows up for the party and is NOT surprised, he explains to everyone that you told him about the party. When they ask why you told him, you explain, "Steve asked me what my plans were for tonight and if we could hang out so I told him. You didn't say I can't tell him about the party! Only that I should not act suspicious around him". When people express how disappointed they are that you so obviously misinterpreted the instructions, you can ask them,"Why are you being so hyper-literal"? Of course, your friends would not be stupid enough to fall for such an argument because the instructions were meant to be literal. They literally wanted the party to be a secret which is why they literally instructed you to literally not talk about it. The fact that you use "hyper" in front of "literal" suggests that you are trying to make a literal interpretation sound ridiculous or exaggerated. You do this because you can't just come out and say that Jesus was never literal in anything he said; you're at least smart enough to know how ridiculous that would sound. Sometimes he was literal and sometimes he used metaphors and/or stories. However, when it comes to a literal teaching you disagree with, you conveniently add the clause, "hyper" to dismiss the literal intent, spiritualizing the teaching to the point that it no longer has any practical application. The result is that even when Jesus says, "keep your fasting secret" you end up doing the opposite. Some of your justifications for talking about your fasting are based on the flimsiest reasoning. Someone invites you to dinner and you see that as a reason to disregard "wash your face so ONLY God knows you're fasting"? Someone is a bit nosy so you give in and tell them about your secret fasting just to get them off your back? What kind of faith is that? My goodness, we're talking about laying our lives down for the gospel's sake and all it takes for you to go against what Jesus said about secret fasting is for someone to be a bit nosy!? The logic here is astounding in it's disregard for any character or backbone when it comes to taking Jesus at face value. In conclusion, the fact that you are so insistent that it IS okay to talk about your fasting to others indicates to me that Jesus knew exactly what he was doing when he gave these instructions about keeping it secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Jesus didn't talk about a back door to gaining praise from men. Jesus said that it was those who were exploiting the fast that were in the wrong. But you are wrong to argue that simply mentioning fasting in response to a situation that arises counts as boasting. So far, no one is accepting your premise. Your premise is not based on Jesus' words; but on your sloppy handling of Jesus' words. No one who is skilled or competent in the Bible approaches this issue like you do. You can do everything possible to not appear to be fasting, to not draw attention to it and still find that yourself in a situation where you might need to explain why you are not eating. Most of the time, that's not the case, but an occasion might present itself for whatever reason. Simply mentioning the fast isn't boasting, at least to a thinking person. Your birthday party scenario isn't really analogous to the commandment about fasting because Jesus didn't say that no one could find out that you're fasting. All Jesus said is not to draw attention to yourself like the Pharisees were doing. The problem with the Pharsees was not that they were going around telling people that they were fasting. They twice weekly fasts and everyone already knew that they fasted twice a week. So for Jesus to make reference to fasting being in secret makes no sense. Jesus was condemning how the Pharisees were exploiting the fasts to appear more holy and garner the praise of men. I emphasize "hyper-literal" because you are taking Jesus words to an extreme degree that He did not intend. You still haven't addressed the issue about prayer. Jesus said to pray in your closet. So is it wrong to for a father to lead his family prayer?? Is it wrong for a minister to lead his congregation in prayer in the Sunday Morning Church service? You should address that issue since Jesus mentioned it in the same section and in the same manner that He did about fasting. So is it wrong to pray in the open for any reason at all? And don't talk about laying down your life for the Gospel. Your approach to the Gospel in the JW threads exposed how little you understand the Gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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