Christ's Perfection

[Guest shiloh357]

Sure, I can start a new thread

[Mr Nice]

Mr. Nice you are really at good posting online novels and quoting immense amount of Scriptures.  But then the Mormons do the same thing.  The most effective cultists  and false teachers  out there are the ones that use the Bible.

 

Like most cultists, you are able to string verses of the Bible together to make it say anything you want.    You quote Scripture, but you interpret Scripture through the filter of your works-based theology.   For example.  You quoted Matthew 24:13   "those that endure to the end shall be saved."    But that verse is in the context of the Great Tribulation.   Jesus was talking about people being preserved through the Great Tribulation.   He was not talking about salvation from  sin.    You don't pay any attention to the verses you use or their context or the intent of the author.

 

You fail to understand that the New Testament uses salvation 5 different ways.  (Healing, preservation, deliverance, security and restoration).   So not every verse that mentions salvation talking about salvation from sin.   Matt. 24:13 is talking about being physically preserved through the Great Tribulation, not salvation from sin.   

 

Another example of your sloppy and cultic handling of Scripture is your quote of Phil. 2:12-16.  " Working out your salvation"  means, "to put on display."   The Greek word used for "working out" is a word that refers to the outworking, the display, or showing forth of something.   Your approach interprets the verse as meaning "work for" your salvation with fear and trembling.   I would also point out that Paul was talking to  congregation, not to  a person.   He was telling the Philippian congregation that as a congregation, they are to put their salvation on display in their community.  They were living in a Roman colony and Paul was reminding them of their responsibility as a congregation to show forth the Gospel to those around them.

 

You take verse and after verse and you run it through a filter that teaches that if a person commits a single sin, they are doomed.   In your theology grace is only for the perfect people who never sin, which shows that you don't understand grace.   You also define the key theological terms to fit your theology and that is true of most cultists I have come in contact with.

 

You have your own version of Christianity, not the authentic New Testament faith that we see in Scripture.   You have a completely different faith.   It is a religion or ideology that depends on works, not on Jesus.  Jesus is just a footnote in your ideology.   YOU, in your theology are the savior.  You are the one saving yourself.   In fact, your theology makes God the enemy.   You are saving yourself from God because it is God who sends you to hell for committing a single sin. 

 

You need  to repent of your sin, and your false Gospel and become an authentic follower of Jesus.  As it stands, your teaching is no Christian, is not biblical and it places you outside the authentic New Testament faith, as you are relying on your own perfection to make you right with God.

First the point of the many verses is to demonstrate the many examples of those who love God and are acting on their faith.  So please don't call me a cultist.  Second, you are still calling my salvation doctrine works based as if it is something I claim to be doing on my own.  It demonstrates you don't read what I have written.  Every one of these examples demonstrates why these people did what they did.  They were all being led by the Spirit and their love for God.  Nonetheless, they are doing as they have been commanded.  Do we or do we not have to do that which God commanded?

 

Your review of Matthew 24:13 demonstrates your lack of understanding of what it means to endure.  It doesn’t mean to survive physically.  It means to remain faithful, not falling away, not betraying one another, and not hating one another.  It means not being led away by false prophets.  It is the same for us today.  This is what you fail to understand.  The only thing it has to do with physical survival is that they need to remain faithful even to the point of death.  It has everything to do with spirituality.  Read the verses again.  It is about remaining faithful in all circumstances like Christ and Paul remained faithful in all of their persecutions.

 

Mat 24:9-13  "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  (10)  "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  (11)  "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.  (12)  "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.  (13)  "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

With Philippians 2:12-16, you neglect to acknowledge the beginning of the passage.   Paul starts with acknowledging that they have always obeyed, not just in his presence, but even more so in his absence.  He is encouraging them to continue, reminding them that God is at work in them.  He is instructing them how to prove their faith to the world.  It is about living a faithful life.  Also in this chapter Paul tells them to have the same attitude of Christ who was obedient to the point of death.

 

The scriptures state that if we are not faithful to Him, the one who has given us everything for life and godliness and sent His Spirit unto us, that we have no part with Him.  If we sin we are not being faithful, if we do not give to our brother who is in need we are not faithful, if we do not love we are not faithful.  If we do all that these scriptures entail, loving God and our neighbor,  then we are being faithful, keeping His commandments.  Because of this we know God as John says:

 

1Jn 2:3-7  By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  (4)  The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  (5)  but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:  (6)  the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.  (7)  Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

 

You claim to know God while claiming that you continue to sin, not keeping His commandments.  According to the scripture above you would be a liar, and the truth (Spirit of Truth) is not in you.  It also says that the love of God is not perfected in you because you are not keeping His word.  You can’t twist this scripture. 

 

It isn’t about not just ceasing from sin, it is about living a life truly devoted to God from a pure heart.  It is not just no longer stealing it is working so that you can provide for others in need.  It isn’t just not lying anymore it is speaking the truth in love.  You are so focused on me saying we must cease from sin that you neglect everything else I have been saying.  God tests us to see if we will be faithful, if we truly fear Him just as Abraham feared Him. 

 

You misunderstand the grace of God.  You view it as this mystical thing that covers you when you fail.  You neglect that His grace includes the example Christ left for us by His life, His death, burial, and resurrection, and the promised Holy Spirit.  You look at only Christ’s death for your salvation which is far from the truth.  Christ didn’t come and die so we could continue to sin.  He died to free us from sin.  When will you recognize this fact?  He does not want us to remain in sin.  He wants us to fully know the love of God and we cannot know this love unless we are truly in Him. God wants to save us from being a wretched man whose body is full of death.  When will you let Him set you free?  When will you stop defending the sin which remains in your life and turn it over to God? 

 

What terms do you claim I am defining incorrectly? 

 

Jesus is the reason for my faith, not a footnote.  Everything I believe is based on what He has said.  Christ said those who keep His commandments are those who love Him.  You claim to love Him while at the same time claiming that you don’t keep His commandments.    My faith doesn’t stop at just believing Jesus is the Son of God.  I believe we are saved by faith in all that has been written.  It is God who frees us from ourselves through His great and magnificent promises.  We condemn ourselves when we choose to not love God.  Christ says fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul.  Do you not fear God?

 

Mat 10:28  "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

I am relying on God to do just as He said He would.  The Bible says he will bring to pass that which He has purposed.  We are called for the purpose of sanctification through His Spirit.  Do you believe this is His purpose or do you reject God?

 

1Th 4:7-8  For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.  (8)  So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

 

You claim we will not be judged by what we do, yet this is exactly what Paul states.  Who controls you?  Is it you or does the love of Christ control you?  One cannot live for Him and sin at the same time. One cannot serve two masters.

 

2Co 5:9-15  Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.  (10)  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.  (11)  Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.  (12)  We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.  (13)  For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.  (14)  For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;  (15)  and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

 

God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but He will not wait forever.  He calls everyone to repent of their sins, to turn from all their wicked ways, and to serve the living God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength.  When are you going love God this way?  God didn’t have His word written and all of His commands given for us to not keep them. 

 

I ask again and I would appreciate an answer.  Do we or do we not have to obey God?  There is no partial answer because God is not partial.

[Mr Nice]

Mr Nice, 

You have quoted many texts that show how one may be saved, and it is overwhelming, because as pointed out by the above post, each text was applicable in a certain situation. As readers of the Bible for our daily bread, we also only take one text at a time, specific for our daily needs, but to heap every spiritual injunction of the scriptures into one moment and thought does not favor Christian growth, you can't water a garden by putting it under 4 feet of water.

 

As a child I did not know who Jesus was or that there was a sacrifice, but I knew what sin was, it was breaking the friendship with God. I knew nothing else except to be friends with God. Salvation has to boil down to such simplicity, and like many, as an adult I have found complications, which we will have to let go, because unless we become as little children we will not enter heaven.

 

All of the requirements in scripture for salvation reside in Christ, and through His companionship we are protected and changed by His presence. His work is very profound and with long term intentions, and beyond our awareness. 

 

The point of all the verses is to demonstrate these people had a right relationship with Christ and were living out their faith, remaining faithful no matter what the situation was. Love is not overwhelming and this is how they were all living.  We must remember His commands are not burdensome, but those who declare we will continue to sin are declaring that His commands are burdensome.  

 

I agree, we should find and take comfort in the simple facts spoken in His Word.  

 

Jesus died to forgive us of our sins.

Jesus gave us the example of how to have a right relationship with God by being led by the Spirit.

Christ died and forgave us of our past sins to prepare us for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the promise given to Abraham.

The Holy Spirit will guide us in all situations and will provide the way out of every temptation, the way out which was prepared by the God who is able to keep us from stumbling.

 

It is that simple.  Accept Christ and live for Him through His Spirit, believing in all the promises of God and that He will bring His purpose for us to pass, which is sanctification by the Spirit.  We are to let Christ reign in our mortal bodies.  God has given us everything we need to do so.

 

God is patient, not wanting any to perish, and wants all to come to repentance, and to live for Him only.

 

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing at the judgement seat trying to give justification why sin remained in my life when He gave us everything we need to love Him.   Trying to claim that the weakness of our flesh was greater than all God promised us.  For greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.

 

I appreciate your posts.

[Sevenseas]

 

Kan, on 24 Jan 2015 - 5:23 PM, said:

Sevenseas,

 

You said the Bible does not teach sinless living after conversion. By our definition of perfection and sinlessness, sure it does not teach that, but it teaches the righteousness of Christ coming out of the believer.

We accept that by faith, because we are not in the position to judge ourselves correctly or others as our experience tells, so we leave it up to God to be "the author and finisher of our faith."

So if we don't sin, we are not aware of it, because we have to rely on Christ, we cannot afford to measure ourselves against ourselves, we can only look at Jesus, at His perfect trust in the Father.

 

 

No, that is what you say I wrote.  I didn't write that.  It would be a kindness if you would stop misquoting in order to make your point.  You may also consider I

was not addressing you although you are still free to respond.   You don't know what my definitions are, so you go further off track and address me as if

I was a humanist trying to make sense of the Bible.  

 

This is what I actually wrote:

 

We, can never live in a sinless state on this earth and the Bible does not indicate that we will.  If that is what you believe, it is further indication of your private interpretation which

is not biblical and is not from the Holy Spirit.

 

I did not say the Bible allows for continued sin...BUT we do not have the same concept of what sin is or the sin nature

 

That's quite a difference.  I guess when people are so badly misquoted the posts can continue for page after page and never have resolution.  

 

As the rest of your post appears to be a response to nothingI actually wrote, I don't see any point in responding

[Sevenseas]

Mr. N:

 

 

My apologies if I misunderstood your statement about Christ's deity.  I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding your statement about Christ’s deity.  Do you believe Christ left part of His deity in heaven with the Father when He came to earth in the flesh?  I believe He left His glory, which is part of His deity.  It is that which the Father gave Him in the beginning.  Leaving this part of Him is the reason He had to rely on the Father.   This is why the Holy Spirit was sent to Him.  Is this what you believe?  If not, then you and others (except Kan) do not believe as I do which makes the following statement you made false.

 

"Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters."

 

 

I don't think that is what is going on.  Here is what you first wrote to me:

 

First, I do agree that Jesus has always been and I have never stated otherwise, so please don't claim I have because that is bearing false witness.  

 

Now, you appear to claim to need clarification on what I believe concerning Christ's deity.  Follow the breadcrumbs right on back up my posts.  I've made it 100% clear

and included scripture to back up what I believe.

 

I know what you believe.  You may have Kan backing you up...go to the same group?  but you do not have the Bible backing up what you state concerning Jesus leaving

bits and parts of Himself behind.  

 

There is only one way to be saved and it does not include the long checklist you have burdened yourself with.  

 

Paul and Silas were asked by their jailer what to do in order to be saved 

 

Here is the answer you missed and it is this simple:

 

BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS and you will be saved.  Acts 16 for that story

 

That is salvation...as the thief on the cross was given...santification and all the rest occur AFTER salvation and are a process.  Salvation is not an unsure thing.

 

We can know here and now if we are saved.  Fear is not a part of love nor is it a part of salvation.

[Sevenseas]

Regarding your questions:

 

 

 

We were created to do the will of the Father whatever that may be.  For Adam and Eve it was caring for the Garden of Eden.  For Abraham it was to leave His homeland and go to the land promised by God and to offer his son as a sacrifice to demonstrate his fear of the Lord, so that we all could be blessed.  Noah built the Ark to save his family from the flood.  Joseph was to be a man of God that saved his family from the famine.  We  are all created to do His will, including casting out demons, healing the sick, or even casting a mountain into the sea if it is God’s will we should.  The Apostles and others also performed the miracles that Jesus performed.  Do you deny this fact?  Do you not believe that the prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much?

 

You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

 

Do you deny that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man when He came to earth to do the will of the Father?

 

 

Sinless State

 

Again I have never stated anyone has lived their entire life without sin except for Christ.  What I have stated and that has no scripture speaking against it is that a Christian (one who has believed Jesus is the Son of God, confessed and repented of their sins, was baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, and received the Holy Spirit) can and has been commanded to sin no longer.  This is why Christ sent the Holy Spirit.   We have the Spirit to guide us just like the Spirit guided Christ through all His trials/temptations.  As a Christian we can live without committing sin if we are led by His Spirit.  To claim otherwise is to claim God is a liar

 

 

Did you forget you also wrote this and in fact, a good number of similar posts?

 

First let me make my above question clear. I agree with man it is impossible to walk blamessly before our God, but through God all things are possible. If all things are possible through Him who is able to keep us from stumbling, Jude 24-25, and who will provide a way of escape from all temptation, 1 Corinthians 10:13, why do peple believe we can not walk blamessly in this life? This is walking blameless through His Spirit (the Helper, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Spirit of Grace, etc.), the same Spirit through whom Christ was able to offer Himself without blemmish on the cross. This brings up another question. Could Jesus have sinned having come as a man who was tempted just as we are?

If we cannot walk blameless why did Christ command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Why did Paul pray that we would be able to walk blameless until the Lord returns, Philippians 1:8-11? How could John say "as He is so are we in this world", 1 John 4:15-21? How can we prove ourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God in a perverse generation, Philippians 2:14-16, if we continue to commit willful sin? Why are we told we can extinguish all the flaming arrows of Satan if we have faith, Ephesians 6:16, if we cannot walk without committing sin as a Christian? I have many more questions but I will wait. 

 

 

 

It seems from this post on the first page of the thread you started and entitled CHRISTIAN PERFECTION that you actually do believe that you can live without sin because

nothing is impossible with God.

 

The problem there of course, is that you are not God.

 

I John 1:8 is written to Christians.  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and tthe truth is not in us.  You are correct if you state the only sinless person

to walk this earth was Jesus...however, you deny His deity.  That, means you deny that God has come in the flesh.  You cannot partition the deity of Jesus Christ

He either was or He was not God and Man upon the earth.  

 

However, taking into account your belief that a Christian can be perfect, it appears when you state this:  Again I have never stated anyone has lived their entire life without sin except for Christ. 

you are actually referring to pre-conversion life.  

 

The word 'perfect' in Matthew 5:48 does not mean sinless.  It means mature or complete.  Jesus addresses how we are to love prior to v.48...we are to love as God

loves...

 

You are blameless because of what Jesus Christ has done FOR you and NOT for anything YOU have done.

 

I'd like to remind you of this verse from Isaiah 64:6...But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

That, is who we are without the redemption of God through His Son.

 

Wilful sin or a sinful lifestyle is excluded for those who follow Christ.  However, I agree with John that if we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us.

 

 

Not from the Holy Spirit

 

Did the Spirit inspire the Apostles to write the New Testament?  Yes.   Did Paul state through this inspiration that those who are led by the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?  Yes.  Did Peter state through the Spirit that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh (i.e. learned obedience through the things He suffered) have ceased from sin, and live the rest of their days for the will of God?  Yes.  Did Paul claim through the Spirit that he and those with him once were disobedient (i.e. no longer are disobedient)? Yes.  What part of my claim then is not from the Holy Spirit?  It is from the word which He inspired to be written.

 

This is speaking of deliberate sin or a sinful lifestyle.  You do not understand the concept of sin or the nature of sin.

 

Paul called himself the chief of sinners and also expressed his battle with sin:

 

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.…Romans 7

 

I know that does not fit in with your theology, but it is in the Bible and a person led by the Holy Spirit would give heed to it because it describes every last one of us.

 

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.                             

 

So, Paul actually states he had sin living inside of him.  Those who believe they have reached sinless perfection are deceived as the above passage written by

Paul would testify.

 

The Bible says far more about sin and the sin nature then you give credit for.  You have also badly misquoted Paul if you state he says he was perfect or sinless

(that is perfect in the sense you appear to ascribe to it...ie sinless state)

 

 

Take my faith more seriously than most

 

Most people to whom I talk, no matter what denomination they are from, cannot defend their faith.  This is the basis of my statement.  It isn’t about judging or disrespecting others as I stated, for there are those who do diligently study to better understand what they believe like you and others who have been defending their faith on this forum.  My emphasis is in that I don’t want anyone to perish.  I don’t take what I believe lightly because what it means for many.  I have spent years trying to prove myself wrong and I cannot.

 

News flash.

 

You cannot keep anyone from perishing.  Only God can do that.  He draws by His Spirit and He knows those who are His.  He keeps those who are His and He has not appointed

you to preach a different gospel in order to provide salvation.

 

I have known people who are so deceived that they believe David and Jonathan had a homosexual lifestyle and they conclude that they can have one too.

 

Deception is the devil's biggest weapon and we are warned over and over concerning the use of this weapon.

 

Only an admittance of truth will deliver a person from deception.  I am afraid you simply do not understand the gift we are given through the grace of God and it

seems you believe your salvation is in your own deeds.

 

Sorry to say, the length of time one spends in a hopeless pursuit does not amount to anything but a waste of time.  I don't know how you developed your beliefs,

or if you were taught them, but they are not biblical.

 

I can see you have laboriously struggled with these things, but the nature of deception is such that once entangled, a person needs help to become free.

 

How are we saved? 

 

We all agree we must believe in Christ.  The extent of that belief is where I am sure we differ, mostly because I believe the faith required by God demands action.  No one in the Bible every received anything promised by God without doing that which He commanded, why do you believe it is different for us now?

 

We are saved by grace, through faith in the promise God made to Abraham.  The Holy Spirit Is the Spirit of promise which we receive by faith.  It is through sanctification by the Spirit who was sent to us by Christ that we are saved.  Christ’s sacrifice cleansed us of our past sins while the Spirit keeps us from future sin.  Without the forgiveness of sins the Spirit could not reside within us.  This sanctification comes from being a slave to obedience by the Spirit’s guidance.  This leads to righteousness with the outcome being eternal life.  Romans 6, Galatians 5:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17, Hebrews 12:14-16.  Christ and the Holy Spirit are a package deal. Both are required for us to be saved.

 

 

Actions do not save anyone.  Actions as a result of salvation are normal....believing they save is not biblical.  

 

With reference to the bold type in your quote:  this is not a question as we have not had that discussion  You have no idea what I believe other then the fact

that I believe that Jesus Christ was fully God and man when He was on earth.

 

Again, you claim you do not sin (see underlined in your quote)...you are not in agreement with either Paul or John; you only quote what you think fits in with your personal theology  

 

Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are saved...not those who keep an exhaustive list through good works or condemnation of others or self righteousness

 

 

You claim we will not be judged by what we do, yet this is exactly what Paul states.  Who controls you?  Is it you or does the love of Christ control you?  One cannot live for Him and sin at the same time. One cannot serve two masters.

 

 

 

Our works will be judged..the Bible clearly states that....but they do not save us.  Only God's grace and forgiveness through the blood of His Son provides salvation for us.

Read the Old Testament and understand what the law and the sacrifices were about.  

 

 

 

You say you have faith yet don’t believe that through His Spirit and the promises of God you can completely serve Him.  Why?  Why do you want to believe that you will continue to fail and disappoint the God you claim to love?  God says he will always provide a way out and that He is able to keep us from stumbling.  Do you believe what God has told us?  Why can you not block all the flaming arrows of Satan with your shield of faith?

 

Gee...when I read what I post, I cannot find what you claim I believe.  That would be because I did not state this..seems more like an attempt to make my

walk with God inferior to your walk.  It's not working. 

 

You are actually the one I would raise the shield of faith against at this point.  The post above is an attempt to create a defensive posture where none is needed.

 

I don't know who you are or all that you believe, but I am not engaging further with you. I pray God protects those who read your posts from your deception.

[Sevenseas]

 

You have your own version of Christianity, not the authentic New Testament faith that we see in Scripture.   You have a completely different faith.   It is a religion or ideology that depends on works, not on Jesus.  Jesus is just a footnote in your ideology.   YOU, in your theology are the savior.  You are the one saving yourself.   In fact, your theology makes God the enemy.   You are saving yourself from God because it is God who sends you to hell for committing a single sin. 

 

You need  to repent of your sin, and your false Gospel and become an authentic follower of Jesus.  As it stands, your teaching is no Christian, is not biblical and it places you outside the authentic New Testament faith, as you are relying on your own perfection to make you right with God.

 

 

That is my conclusion also.

[Kan]

Sevenseas wrote ;

 

"We, can never live in a sinless state on this earth and the Bible does not indicate that we will.  If that is what you believe, it is further indication of your private interpretation which

is not biblical and is not from the Holy Spirit."

 

 

 

 

To which I concluded that you mean that the Bible does not teach sinless living...

to which you claim you did not say that?

 

Sure, I may not have understood what you meant to say, but can you understand why I  thought you meant that?

Edited January 28, 2015 by Kan

[Guest shiloh357]

actually, the Bible does not command us to never commit a single sin after we are saved.   Mr. Nice takes all of the Bible's exhortation that we live holy, pure and godly lives as an indication that we are commanded to never commit a single sin ever again in our lives and if one does commit a sin, that person is doomed to hell unless they get saved again. 

 

Mr. Nice denies the full deity of Jesus while He was living an ministering on earth which is theological heresy.

 

Mr. Nice is trying to impose his beliefs on to the Bible, but his beliefs are not Christian.   He promotes a false Gospel and a false Christianity that does not have Christ in it.  

[Mr Nice]

Mr. N:

 

 

My apologies if I misunderstood your statement about Christ's deity.  I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding your statement about Christ’s deity.  Do you believe Christ left part of His deity in heaven with the Father when He came to earth in the flesh?  I believe He left His glory, which is part of His deity.  It is that which the Father gave Him in the beginning.  Leaving this part of Him is the reason He had to rely on the Father.   This is why the Holy Spirit was sent to Him.  Is this what you believe?  If not, then you and others (except Kan) do not believe as I do which makes the following statement you made false.

 

"Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters."

 

 

I don't think that is what is going on.  Here is what you first wrote to me:

 

First, I do agree that Jesus has always been and I have never stated otherwise, so please don't claim I have because that is bearing false witness.  

 

Now, you appear to claim to need clarification on what I believe concerning Christ's deity.  Follow the breadcrumbs right on back up my posts.  I've made it 100% clear

and included scripture to back up what I believe.

 

I know what you believe.  You may have Kan backing you up...go to the same group?  but you do not have the Bible backing up what you state concerning Jesus leaving

bits and parts of Himself behind.  

 

There is only one way to be saved and it does not include the long checklist you have burdened yourself with.  

 

Paul and Silas were asked by their jailer what to do in order to be saved 

 

Here is the answer you missed and it is this simple:

 

BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS and you will be saved.  Acts 16 for that story

 

That is salvation...as the thief on the cross was given...santification and all the rest occur AFTER salvation and are a process.  Salvation is not an unsure thing.

 

We can know here and now if we are saved.  Fear is not a part of love nor is it a part of salvation.

 

I love when people bring up the thief on the cross to try and make their point.  Christ had not yet died for the forgiveness of sins, nor had His Spirit been sent when He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day.  Christ was forgiving people of their sins as only He can prior to dying on the cross.  He didn’t have to die in order to forgive sins.  This is evident throughout His ministry because He was always declaring the sins of those who came to Him in faith were forgiven. 

 

Yes let us be honest here.  You have accused me of not acknowledging others when they have agreed with my beliefs and made the following statement.

 

"Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters."

 

You stated that yourself and others addressed the same belief that I have about Christ leaving part of his deity.   This is why I asked for clarification because you have not been consistent.  You don’t believe what I believe, yet in the statement above you said you did.  Which is it?

 

Christ willing gave up His glory in heaven, being made a little lower than the angels.  He lived the life God planned for us to live when He created us as completely faithful seeds.  He was baptized in water and received the Holy Spirit who guided Him throughout His ministry, so that in the end He could present Himself without blemish to God as a sacrifice for our sins.  God raised Him from the dead and He returned to the Father so that He could send His Spirit to us.  God exalted His name above every name, giving back the glory Jesus had in the beginning.  Having received His Spirit, we are able to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength.   Through the Spirit we cease from sin, keeping His commandments, and producing the fruit of the Spirit.  Because we do these things we abide in Him, and He in us, having His love perfected in us.  What part of this do you declare is my salvation by works, for it is only through His Spirit we are able to do these things?  What part of this is not in scripture?

 

Yes the jailer asked what they must do to be saved and Paul did reply with believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.  But then it says they spoke the word of the Lord to them and immediately they were baptized.  I don’t remember if it was you or Shiloh357 that compared me to Mormons and the cultists because I was referring to multiple scriptures trying to justify my beliefs.  The funny thing is, Mormons and the cultists don’t use multiple passages to make their point.  They take single passages and twist them to make their point.  This is what you do when you try to point to a single instance of scripture and ignore the rest of what is written.  I don’t think you are a cultist, I just believe you are misguided.  Back to the jailer, Paul spoke the word of the Lord to them and they believed.  What did they believe?  Everything they were taught about Christ which is also why they were baptized.

 

Act 16:32-33  And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.  (33)  And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

 

Again, you want to claim we only have to believe Christ is the Son of God, but you neglect to acknowledge what it means to believe in Christ.  You neglect everything He commanded us to do to be saved.  This is what you don’t want to think about when it comes to believing Jesus is the Son of God.  If Paul spoke the word of Christ he taught them to obey all that Jesus commanded like Christ taught the Apostles to go do.

 

Mar 16:15-16  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.  (16)  "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

 

Mat 28:19-20  "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,  (20)  teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

Again, this is Christ’s word, not mine.

 

Sanctification is not separate from salvation for it is through sanctification that we have the outcome of eternal life.  From where does sanctification come?  It comes through His Spirit guiding us so that we become slaves of obedience/righteousness.  By being slaves to obedience/righteousness we are sanctified and the outcome is eternal life.

 

Rom 6:16-23  Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?  (17)  But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,  (18)  and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.  (19)  I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.  (20)  For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  (21)  Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.  (22)  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  (23)  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Sanctification and eternal life are a free gift from God because He gave us His Spirit, but we must believe He will guide us and strengthen us so that we can be slaves of obedience/righteousness and be sanctified.  If we are not sanctified we will not receive eternal life.  This is where we differ.  I believe we can be slaves of obedience/righteousness just like Christ was by being led by His Spirit.  You believe you will remain a slave to your sin, never able to cease from it.

 

How can we know here and now that we are saved?  John tells us in 1 John 5:13.

 

1Jn 5:13  These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

What did He write? 

 

He said those who claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness (sin) lie and do not practice the truth.  But those who walk in the Light as He is in the Light have fellowship and their sins are cleansed.

 

1Jn 1:6-7  If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;  (7)  but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

He says those who refuse to acknowledge they have sinned against God are deceiving themselves, being devoid of the truth an d His word and they are calling God a liar, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  But if they confess they have sinned, they will be forgiven and their sins will be cleansed.

 

1Jn 1:8-10  If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.  (9)  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  (10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

He said those who know God keep His commandments and the love of God is perfected in them.

 

1Jn 2:3-6  By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  (4)  The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  (5)  but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:  (6)  the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

He says the one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause of stumbling in Him.

 

1Jn 2:10  The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

 

He says the one who does the will of the God lives forever.  Loving the world (sinning) is not the will of the God.

 

1Jn 2:15-17  Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  (16)  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.  (17)  The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

 

He says those who have the hope of being made like Him when He comes purify themselves as He is pure.  He says we don’t yet know what form that will be.  But what we do know is that He is pure, holy, perfect, righteous, etc. of which we are commanded to be while here on earth.  To make myself clear, we do this through His Spirit.  John says that no one who abides in Him sins, and that no one who sins has seen Him or known Him, repeating what he stated in chapter 2.

 

1Jn 3:2-6  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.  (3)  And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.  (4)  Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.  (5)  You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.  (6)  No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

 

He says if we hate our brother by not giving him what he needs from our abundance that we do not love Him.

 

1Jn 3:17  But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

 

He says that we are of the truth if we love in deed and in truth we will assure our hearts before Him.  He says that we will receive whatever we ask for because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing to Him.  He tells us His commandment is this, believe in the name of His Son AND love one another.  He says those who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.  We know He abides in us because we have His Spirit who guides us to keep His commandments.

 

1Jn 3:18-24  Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.  (19)  We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him  (20)  in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.  (21)  Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;  (22)  and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.  (23)  This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.  (24)  The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

He says that the one who loves is born of God and knows God and the one who does not love (sins) does not know God. 

 

1Jn 4:6-8  We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.  (7)  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.  (8)  The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

He states again how the love of God is perfected in us.  He says if we love one another that His love is perfected in us.  Now we have the one who keeps His commandments and the one who loves has the love of God perfected in them.  Again he says those who have the Spirit (our Helper) abide in Him, and He in us.  Because we have His love perfected in us by loving one another and keeping His commandments that we have no fear.

 

1Jn 4:12-18  No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.  (13)  By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.  (14)  We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.  (15)  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.  (17)  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

He tells us how we know we love the children born of God when we love God and keep His commandments which are not burdensome.  He says we have overcome the world by our faith in Christ.  Again, faith in Christ is not just believing He is the Son of God.

 

1Jn 5:2-5  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.  (3)  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.  (4)  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

Those who abide in God and He in them do these three things being led by the Spirit and they will receive eternal life.

 

·         Believe Jesus is the Son of God.

·         Love one another.

·         Keep God’s commandments.

 

You cannot contradict the scriptures.  Again, let me make myself very clear, we can only do this through Him who strengthens us through His Spirit.  This will only occur if we believe all that his word teaches us.  Our faith is perfected by our works just as Abraham’s faith was perfected by works.  When I speak of works it is with respect to obeying God and doing as He says.  The works are done in faith through His Spirit.

 

God has given us everything to life and godliness so that we can follow Him and him alone, loving Him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength.

 

This is God’s plan of salvation.  You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God for it is His Word.