The 1,335 days prophecy

[WilliamL]

William

 

Remember that the good shepherd cares for the sheep.  If we stray, and get a bit lost, he will go look for us and bring us back.  He does this because he loves us.  The hireling does not care for the sheep.

The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.  The hireling never does that. [etc.]

True, but how does your post at all relate to the prophecy in Daniel 8, which is what we were discussing?

Edited March 3, 2015 by WilliamL

[Sister]

 

William

 

Remember that the good shepherd cares for the sheep.  If we stray, and get a bit lost, he will go look for us and bring us back.  He does this because he loves us.  The hireling does not care for the sheep.

The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.  The hireling never does that. [etc.]

True, but how does your post at all relate to the prophecy in Daniel 8, which is what we were discussing?

 

William

 

I asked you when the sanctuary will be cleansed;

 

you replied

 

When Judas Maccabeus cleansed it, which event is celebrated in the Jewish Feast of Lights, a.k.a Hanukkah, a.k.a. Feast of (Re-)Dedication (of the Temple). John 10:22

 

 

The scriptures do not suggest this at all.  You have given me an answer from a difference source, one that contradicts the scriptures.

I'm showing you that your explanation takes us away from the bible, backed by a history book that is not God inspired.

If we recognise the voice of he shepherd, then we will not stray off course, but stay within the holy scriptures with the prophets who were sent by God, and not appointed by themselves or man.

We must eat the flesh of Christ and no other.  It's so simple. This is what I was pointing out. 

[Serving]

 

 

I took a brief look at the site you referred to and just wanted to point out that even within the explanation it is stated that there is definitely likely an end time duality therein also !! .. that is, that this will be repeated by the False Prophet (antichrist)

 

Just thought I'd point that out.

That is his opinion, being a pre-tribber of the Calvary Chapel school. His history is accurate; his opinion is an opinion only, not holy writ.

 

Do you really believe there will be [or has been] another ram and he-goat battle in our days, and the he-goat's horn will be broken, and there will be another 4 horns that will arise in its place, etc. etc.? If so, I'd love to see the evidence of this. If not, and you believe all these things are yet future, then you should admit that Christ's return cannot possibly take place in our lifetimes. Either course of events is a pretty hard sell, IMHO.

 

Or, do you just want to be able to cherry-pick the parts of Dan. 8 that are convenient to your End Time theory, and ignore the parts that are not? That is what a lot of people do when they try to interpret the various prophecies of Daniel. But they only deceive themselves and others, and introduce much confusion into End Time discourse.

 

Either discussions of eschatology base themselves upon two or three solid scriptural and/or historical witnesses, or they don't. When they do, then we get solid stones of understanding upon which to build. When they don't, then we get long chains of unsupported theories linked together, which can sound perfectly reasonable and logical, but in reality are only examples of circular reasoning:

 

" a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this"; also called circular logic. "

 

When you take a hard look at pre-trib teachings, you find a great amount of circular reasoning. (And not just pre-trib teachings, by any means.)

 

 

William,

 

Firstly, I am no pre-tribber, scripture is crystal clear, the resurrection occurs at the 2nd coming.

 

Secondly I am going to show you in the simplest way possible and prove beyond doubt why you are terribly wrong with your opinion on Daniel ch8.

 

And here it is :

 

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 

Christ is the Prince of the host of heaven.

 

Yet Christ had not even come into the world back then in those days, and since He was not revealed to men or angels (as the Christ), being not come into the world as yet, how then could this man you are promoting exalt himself (compare himself) against someone he hasn't even heard of yet?

 

Whose teachings were a mystery to men and angels since He had not yet come into the world with His testimony for to be compared against by this man you are promoting? Whose teachings even the angels (fallen ones) desired to look into??

 

The simple answer is .. he could not, and you are greatly mistaken.

 

You need to reconsider .. 

 

Cheers.  

Edited March 4, 2015 by Serving

[Sister]

 

 

I took a brief look at the site you referred to and just wanted to point out that even within the explanation it is stated that there is definitely likely an end time duality therein also !! .. that is, that this will be repeated by the False Prophet (antichrist)

 

Just thought I'd point that out.

That is his opinion, being a pre-tribber of the Calvary Chapel school. His history is accurate; his opinion is an opinion only, not holy writ.

 

Do you really believe there will be [or has been] another ram and he-goat battle in our days, and the he-goat's horn will be broken, and there will be another 4 horns that will arise in its place, etc. etc.? If so, I'd love to see the evidence of this. If not, and you believe all these things are yet future, then you should admit that Christ's return cannot possibly take place in our lifetimes. Either course of events is a pretty hard sell, IMHO.

 

Or, do you just want to be able to cherry-pick the parts of Dan. 8 that are convenient to your End Time theory, and ignore the parts that are not? That is what a lot of people do when they try to interpret the various prophecies of Daniel. But they only deceive themselves and others, and introduce much confusion into End Time discourse.

 

Either discussions of eschatology base themselves upon two or three solid scriptural and/or historical witnesses, or they don't. When they do, then we get solid stones of understanding upon which to build. When they don't, then we get long chains of unsupported theories linked together, which can sound perfectly reasonable and logical, but in reality are only examples of circular reasoning:

 

" a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this"; also called circular logic. "

 

When you take a hard look at pre-trib teachings, you find a great amount of circular reasoning. (And not just pre-trib teachings, by any means.)

 

Hi William

 

We know who the ram and the he goat is because scripture interprets it for us.

 

 Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

 Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

 Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

 

There should be no confusion there, it's clear and shouldn't be an issue.

now we go to the next verse;

 

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

The four generals went north, west, east, and south.  The kingdom they all belong to is spiritually called Babylon.

When the transgressors are come to the full, ...when the grapes are fully ripe, and the harvest is ready, God will start punishing Babylon.  He will start by giving them a king, to decieve those who did not love the truth...The false prophet.  In the latter time of their kingdom.

 

 

Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

God is speaking specifically of this fierce king now.  Look at the clues.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

 

 

That was the last half of Chapter 8.

We go back to the beginning of the chapter

 

Daniel 8:8   Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 8:9   And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 

There are only four kingdoms.  This little horn comes out of one of them, not straight away, but at the end.  We know from history Rome came up next.  We don't need to know who was who to interpret this chapter.  It's simple.  It's only about the little horn now, not any generals etc.

 

  Daniel 8:10   And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 

Horn means ruler.  This horn waxes great.

  Daniel 8:11   Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 

Like Serving said, this prince of the host has to be Jesus.  All the angels are under him, ....because he created them.  It was a good point, and something I never thought of.

  Daniel 8:12   And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Concentrate on the horn, and the man of 2 Thessalonians, the Son of Perdition.  It's the same man.  He's not alone, but has Satan working with him, all the fallen angels, and the other beast of Rev (10 kings)

  Daniel 8:13   Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

  Daniel 8:14   And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

 

Now to get an idea of what time frame we are talking about, the answer is here in the scriptures;

 

 Daniel 8:15   And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

  Daniel 8:16   And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

  Daniel 8:17   So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

  Daniel 8:18   Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

  Daniel 8:19   And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 

This horn, is the man to come, the False prophet/Son of Perdition.

The angel who is making Daniel understand, is clear that the vision concerning the little horn is at the time of the end.

We didn't need to go to history books to understand, the scriptures already told us who this little horn is. 

The angel explains it all from the time of Ram and the He Goat, ...and makes it clear that this vision concerns the time of the end, concerning the little horn, which is witnessed in 2Thess, and Revelations which you already know.

 

So just showing you that the scriptures interpret themselves, the more we read.

There is no need to get upset, what a wonderful thing God has provided for us,....his Word ....which is Christ's flesh.

 

John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 6:51   I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you

John 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 

This is how I see it anyway.  Christ's flesh is that spiritual food that came down from heaven.  The words of the holy bible is his flesh, ...our food.  Because he is the Word of God.

We can only really know him through his Word and become one with him through that same teaching which he gave us, which no one else can.

This is not to offend you brother, but something I like to share.

[WilliamL]

 

 

William

 

Remember that the good shepherd cares for the sheep.  If we stray, and get a bit lost, he will go look for us and bring us back.  He does this because he loves us.  The hireling does not care for the sheep.

The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.  The hireling never does that. [etc.]

True, but how does your post at all relate to the prophecy in Daniel 8, which is what we were discussing?

 

William

 

I asked you when the sanctuary will be cleansed;

 

you replied

 

When Judas Maccabeus cleansed it, which event is celebrated in the Jewish Feast of Lights, a.k.a Hanukkah, a.k.a. Feast of (Re-)Dedication (of the Temple). John 10:22

 

 

The scriptures do not suggest this at all.  You have given me an answer from a difference source, one that contradicts the scriptures.

I'm showing you that your explanation takes us away from the bible, backed by a history book that is not God inspired.

And I showed you that Scripture acknowledges the Feast of Dedication:

 

John 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

 

-- speaking precisely of the Jewish feast established to commemorate the Maccabees' cleansing and re-dedication of the Temple, at the time (December) that it was re-dedicated. Which feast Jews have observed continuously for 2079 years. Now, you can ignore the evidence of history all you want, its your choice:

 

1 Cor. 14:38 ...if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

But all of this has nothing to do with your quote about the hireling.

Edited March 5, 2015 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

... I am going to show you in the simplest way possible and prove beyond doubt why you are terribly wrong with your opinion on Daniel ch 8.

 

And here it is :

 

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 

Christ is the Prince of the host of heaven.

 

Yet Christ had not even come into the world back then in those days, and since He was not revealed to men or angels (as the Christ), being not come into the world as yet, how then could this man you are promoting exalt himself (compare himself) against someone he hasn't even heard of yet?

Dan. 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

 

This passage is generally accepted to be a theophany of Christ which took place 400 years before Antiochus, so to say that Christ was not revealed before his birth is incorrect. He also appeared to Abraham.

 

Secondly, Antiochus took the name Epiphanes, which means "God manifest." That is, he was claiming to be an incarnation of the God Zeus, the chief of the pantheon of gods of his age.

 

Third, consider this passage in Daniel 8, wherein the angel is explaining the meaning of the vision:

 

Dan. 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

Here the angel specifically says that the "king of fierce countenance" who "shall even rise against the prince of princes" (8:25) will arise in the latter time of the 4 kingdoms that derived from Alexander the Great's empire. All of the those 4 kingdoms were extinguished by the Romans and other powers before Christ was born. Thus, only Antiochus fits the bill of an antichrist-like person who came to power before the end of the kingdoms of the Greeks.

[WilliamL]

We know who the ram and the he goat is because scripture interprets it for us.

 

 Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

 Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

 Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

 

There should be no confusion there, it's clear and shouldn't be an issue.

now we go to the next verse;

 

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

The four generals went north, west, east, and south.  The kingdom they all belong to is spiritually called Babylon. ...

William replies: Huh? The only kingdom being described is the Kingdom of the Greeks: that is "their kingdom." And that whole kingdom was snuffed out before the end of the 1st century BC.

 

All of the rest of the points you made are likewise covered in my post to Serving.

[Sonseeahray]

The anchor date in the 1,335 day prophesy comes from the history of Josephus. After the siege of Titus began (Passover 70AD) he tells us that the daily sacrifice failed on Tammuz 17th 70AD. The daily sacrifice failed on the 1,290th day of the 1,335 day prophesy. So when was the AoD set up? Simple - count backwards 1,290 days.

 

Going backwards to the beginning of the 1,290 days brings us to Cheshvan 4th 66AD. What was happening in Jerusalem on this date? Cestius's 30-45,000 man army was surrounding the city of Jerusalem. The terrorists had taken over the temple and used it as a fortress against his incursion into the city. And so we have in place the two signposts that Jesus warned his followers about. The AoD terrorists standing in the Holy place and armies surrounding the city. According to Daniel's prophesy he states that the war ended just 45 days after the failure of the daily sacrifice. So according to Daniel's timetable the war officially ended on Elul 3rd 70AD (total of 1,335 days). Josephus does not indicate any specific day as to the war's end. Cestius retreated on the 5th of Cheshvan 66AD just one day after the timetable of Daniel began. Simple isn't it?

[Sister]

And I showed you that Scripture acknowledges the Feast of Dedication:

 

John 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

-- speaking precisely of the Jewish feast established to commemorate the Maccabees' cleansing and re-dedication of the Temple, at the time (December) that it was re-dedicated. Which feast Jews have observed continuously for 2079 years. Now, you can ignore the evidence of history all you want, its your choice:

 

1 Cor. 14:38 ...if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

But all of this has nothing to do with your quote about the hireling.

 

William

 

I went to the scriptures to find out what this feast of dedication is and it took me all the way back to the days of Moses.

 

It started here, no temple yet, but just an altar.

Numbers 7:84   This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

Numbers 7:88   And all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace offerings were twenty and four bullocks, the rams sixty, the he goats sixty, the lambs of the first year sixty. This was the dedication of the altar, after that it was anointed.

 

And later here, Solomon builds the temple, and the altar is here

 

2 Chronicles 7:7   Moreover Solomon hallowed the middle of the court that was before the house of the LORD: for there he offered burnt offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings, because the brasen altar which Solomon had made was not able to receive the burnt offerings, and the meat offerings, and the fat.

 

2 Chronicles 7:8   Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt.

2 Chronicles 7:9   And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days.

2 Chronicles 7:16   For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

 

Now the 2nd temple is built.

 

  Ezra 6:14   And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

 

 Ezra 6:15   And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

 Ezra 6:16   And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,

 Ezra 6:17   And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

 

  Nehemiah 12:26   These were in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua, the son of Jozadak, and in the days of Nehemiah the governor, and of Ezra the priest, the scribe.

  Nehemiah 12:27   And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to keep the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, psalteries, and with harps.

  Nehemiah 12:28   And the sons of the singers gathered themselves together, both out of the plain country round about Jerusalem, and from the villages of Netophathi;

  Nehemiah 12:29   Also from the house of Gilgal, and out of the fields of Geba and Azmaveth: for the singers had builded them villages round about Jerusalem.

  Nehemiah 12:30   And the priests and the Levites purified themselves, and purified the people, and the gates, and the wall.

  Nehemiah 12:31   Then I brought up the princes of Judah upon the wall, and appointed two great companies of them that gave thanks, whereof one went on the right hand upon the wall toward the dung gate:

 

 

It seems to me that this "dedication" of the altar, where the sacrifices are made, is a dedication to God, and not man.  This altar was not in a temple at first, then it stood in the 1st temple that Solomon built, and the 2nd temple also.  It is a dedication to God that his house is sanctified by him, because he made it possible.  I'm not getting what you are telling me, but letting the scriptures tell the story.

 

 

John 10:22   And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

John 10:23   And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

[Sister]

 

We know who the ram and the he goat is because scripture interprets it for us.

 

 Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

 Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

 Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

 

There should be no confusion there, it's clear and shouldn't be an issue.

now we go to the next verse;

 

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

The four generals went north, west, east, and south.  The kingdom they all belong to is spiritually called Babylon. ...

William replies: Huh? The only kingdom being described is the Kingdom of the Greeks: that is "their kingdom." And that whole kingdom was snuffed out before the end of the 1st century BC.

 

All of the rest of the points you made are likewise covered in my post to Serving.

 

Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

 

The four generals do not stand up in Alexanders power, the power of Greece.  It says so.

Four kingdoms.  If it was Greece still, then they would still be one kingdom, but they took took territiories each for themselves and started new kingdoms.  And out of one of them became Rome.

 

The only thing these four kingdoms have in common is that they are all of Babylon spiritually.

 

Daniel 8:23:  ......"And in the latter time of their kingdom."....it's grouping them all together, we know they went their separate ways, and one kingdom became powerful (Rome) but they are treated equally here.

It's becase they all have one kingdom ruling over them, and that is Satan's kingdom, ....Babylon..... spiritually speaking.

So, in the latter time of Satan's kingdom, is when this fierce king will stand up, and this fierce king is the little horn.

Did you look at 2 Thessalonians and compare?

Would you like to reason with me brother or just insult me?

We are dealing with living fountains of water which the Lamb gives, and handling the Word of Life.

We should do so with peace.

I have put my cards on the table and treated you with respect, after all, it's scripture which we are analysing. 

Our words are only ramblings, but the scriptures tell the true story.

I bring this to your attention.

 

Daniel 8:23 ......."when the transgressors are come to the full?.....

Do you really think that evil doers reached their peak back then?  or has sin gotten worse over the years.

You decide.

 

Daniel 8:24 ....."a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences stall stand up."

Who are the christian world with knowledge expecting?

What are the prophesies for?,

and what does "at the time of the end" mean to you?

 

peace brother.