ayin jade Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,799 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well, take groups like "Jesus Culture" which I mentioned earlier. It started off as a youth conference and morphed into a movement. It is a rock concert, a worship service and a preaching service all rolled up into one. The worship aspect of their movement is troubling because the people who lead it come from Bethel Church in Redding, CA and they are a Word of Faith church. The worship leaders claim that they have direct audible contact with Jesus himself and the female leaders claims have been with Jesus and His arms were wrapped around her and she claims direct revelation from Him. This is while ethereal music plays in the background. In addition, they like so many worship leaders use really shallow songs about wanting God to burn them up and set them on fire and they don't even understand how unbiblical it is. They will stand and repeat the same five words over and over for a long time. So many worship songs are about being in a romantic relationship with Jesus. In addition,, there are groups who promote "worship-led evangelism" which basically looks at worship as an evangelistic tool. The Gospel is something to come and see, and no longer something to go and tell. Worship is less and less about God and more about personal feelings, these days. Worship ironically has become an idol. I know people who church hop in order to find the church with the best praise and worship and if the "quality" goes down, they are gone and looking elsewhere. I say it is ironic in that people are in some cases, without realizing it, worshipping the act of worship. They can't worship God if all of the conditions are not perfect. If the worship team doesn't sound just right, if they don't like the song choices, if they don't a an emotional thrill, they off to some other place. People don't join a church because of doctrine, anymore. What happens is that a church may be doctrinally unsound, but if the worship is good, people will stay in that kind of church. It is really sad. I cant argue with this. I agree with all you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well, take groups like "Jesus Culture" which I mentioned earlier. It started off as a youth conference and morphed into a movement. It is a rock concert, a worship service and a preaching service all rolled up into one. The worship aspect of their movement is troubling because the people who lead it come from Bethel Church in Redding, CA and they are a Word of Faith church. The worship leaders claim that they have direct audible contact with Jesus himself and the female leaders claims have been with Jesus and His arms were wrapped around her and she claims direct revelation from Him. This is while ethereal music plays in the background. In addition, they like so many worship leaders use really shallow songs about wanting God to burn them up and set them on fire and they don't even understand how unbiblical it is. They will stand and repeat the same five words over and over for a long time. So many worship songs are about being in a romantic relationship with Jesus. In addition,, there are groups who promote "worship-led evangelism" which basically looks at worship as an evangelistic tool. The Gospel is something to come and see, and no longer something to go and tell. Worship is less and less about God and more about personal feelings, these days. Worship ironically has become an idol. I know people who church hop in order to find the church with the best praise and worship and if the "quality" goes down, they are gone and looking elsewhere. I say it is ironic in that people are in some cases, without realizing it, worshipping the act of worship. They can't worship God if all of the conditions are not perfect. If the worship team doesn't sound just right, if they don't like the song choices, if they don't a an emotional thrill, they off to some other place. People don't join a church because of doctrine, anymore. What happens is that a church may be doctrinally unsound, but if the worship is good, people will stay in that kind of church. It is really sad. I cant argue with this. I agree with all you said. People don't join a church because of doctrine, anymore. What happens is that a church may be doctrinally unsound, but if the worship is good, people will stay in that kind of church. It is really sad. While I agree with all you have said, your comment tends to be a generalization? When I started in my church, and the core members are still in the church, with some new families having joined (grown to 100 from about 60 five years ago), we had one guy and a guitar leading worship. We have been blessed with people joining who have musical skills, but am willing to bet that if we went back to one guy and a guitar, our membership would be hardly, if all, dented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proof Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 165 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 217 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/09/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2015 I agree with Shilo, I had mentioned the other day that these "concert" atmospheres create a false euphoric feeling. You shouldn't need a bunch of loud music and shiny lights to worship and feel the Holy Spirit. Go to any concert and you usually leave feeling awesome about it. But rarely does that carry over into the next day. And to the comment about the claims made by members of Jesus Culture, if anyone believes their claims about their relationship with God, (personal and audible) then they are just as lost as the ones making the claims. Wide is the gate, my friends, wide is the gate...... Proof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yes it is generalization, but it is a generalization that is usually spot on in the US. If your church is still singing out of hymnbooks and the preacher wears a suit and tie and stands behind the pulpit, and you still use a piano and maybe an organ, your numbers will be pretty low. The way you get a big church in the US is to stop preaching doctrine, and preach about how to follow your dreams. Preach about family, finances, how to relate to other people, social justice, relationships, and avoid topics that bore people like sin, repentance, evangelism and soul winning. That stuff is so 1952. That's the way it is generally in the US. I can promise you, one guy and a guitar wont hold some people around here. but its more than just that. People join churches that are fun and have lots of activities. Since there is such a lack of discernment creeping into the US churches, many would not recognize doctrine that is just off enough to lead people astray while laced with enough "Christianese" to deceive people. One church in my hometown, a mega church, has a Christian singles (nonalcoholic) "singles night club" that is open every Friday and Saturday night. Yeah, nothing could go wrong there. Churches in the US are operating from a very skewed idea of what worship is. Worship is not about appealing to the people and making them feel good. That 's been our problem for years. Real worship that is no rooted in human emotion and serves our self-centered nature is boring and antique and dry. Our focus is all wrong. We have a "concert" mentality when it comes to worship. We see the worship team as performers and ourselves as the audience. The truth is that the worship team should lead us in worship and worship is a sacrifice we off to God. God is the audience. He is the one we should focus on, not our feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Summers Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 27 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/29/1984 Share Posted March 25, 2015 There is no biblical basis for a preacher wearing a 3 piece suit, people sitting in pews and singing hymns out of a book. People who grew up with that think it the way is supposed to be. Why does church have to be stuffy and boring to be Godly? What was worship like in the Old Teatament? Seems it was filled with singing and dancing and praising the Lord, all the while raising the spirits of those involved. I also disagree with the purpose of worship. We don't worship God because He needs us to, but becaue we need to...worship is for us to focus on God. Why should people not finish a worship service feeling energized, what is more energizing than our Heavely Father? I attend a small home church but most every Saturday night I am at a large church that has an awesome Saturday music night that is filled with the joy of praising the Lord. And I think the Christian singles night is a great idea, would you rather singles meet in a bar or alone in someone's house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Summers Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 27 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/29/1984 Share Posted March 25, 2015 In the context as part of a service I love today's style of free flowing songs offering our hearts to God. The older hymns are so dreary and slow, not how I picture it from the Old Testament. King David danced around the city praising and worshiping the Lord. I believe this is how worship should be, not standing still reading the words out of a book. I also believe it is as much for us as it is for God. Worship should bring us closer to God, it should open our heart to Him. God does not need us to worship Him, but we surly need to worship Him!! I believe it is all about the heart, Alex. Some people are more emotional than others. If a person sing the words from a hymnal and really mean those words, it is accepted before God. Worship of God is to be done in Spirit, and truth. Scripture speaks of being generous to others as an accepted form of worship. Offering our bodies to God as living sacrifices is considered worship. Many feel they need to work up a lather, or go into a trance to worship God, or be "in the Spirit", but scripture says we are already in the Spirit by the mere fact that the Spirit of God dwells in us. We just need to come to him with authenticity and hearts full of gratitude. Types of music are so subjective that I think it's wrong for me, or anyone else to tell Saints what type of music they should perform before the Lord. As long as it honors Christ, and does not go off into some sensual, unbiblical mess, it should be fine. Energetic or Old school, to Christ be the glory. Saved, I agree...it is all about where the heart is. I did a mission trip to Africa a while back, no suits, no pews, no books to sing out of....but oh my goodness, they worshiped the Lord with such a fire and a passion. There is much we could learn from groups that do not have life as easy as we do! Thank you for your wise words! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted March 25, 2015 In the context as part of a service I love today's style of free flowing songs offering our hearts to God. The older hymns are so dreary and slow, not how I picture it from the Old Testament. King David danced around the city praising and worshiping the Lord. I believe this is how worship should be, not standing still reading the words out of a book. I also believe it is as much for us as it is for God. Worship should bring us closer to God, it should open our heart to Him. God does not need us to worship Him, but we surly need to worship Him!! I believe it is all about the heart, Alex. Some people are more emotional than others. If a person sing the words from a hymnal and really mean those words, it is accepted before God. Worship of God is to be done in Spirit, and truth. Scripture speaks of being generous to others as an accepted form of worship. Offering our bodies to God as living sacrifices is considered worship. Many feel they need to work up a lather, or go into a trance to worship God, or be "in the Spirit", but scripture says we are already in the Spirit by the mere fact that the Spirit of God dwells in us. We just need to come to him with authenticity and hearts full of gratitude. Types of music are so subjective that I think it's wrong for me, or anyone else to tell Saints what type of music they should perform before the Lord. As long as it honors Christ, and does not go off into some sensual, unbiblical mess, it should be fine. Energetic or Old school, to Christ be the glory. Saved, I agree...it is all about where the heart is. I did a mission trip to Africa a while back, no suits, no pews, no books to sing out of....but oh my goodness, they worshiped the Lord with such a fire and a passion. There is much we could learn from groups that do not have life as easy as we do! Thank you for your wise words! Interesting. Where did you do your Mission trip to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I never said that there was a biblical basis for suits and ties and pulpits. I also never said that God needed our worship. Perhaps Alex, you could respond to what was actually written. Worship is not about feeing energized. That's the problem. We want worship to be about us and about how we feel. Worship is not about us or energizing us. Worship is about God and honoring him. Making worship about how we feel only highlights the selfishness that pervades this generation of Christians. It is doing worship the way WE want and expecting God to accept what we offer. God and not man, determines how He is approached. Our problem is that we want to worship OUR way and God is not obligated to accept it. Just because we are thrilled with how we worship and just because we are energized by it, it doesn't mean God accepts it. It just means that we have made feelings our god, and we have idolized worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Summers Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 27 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/29/1984 Share Posted March 25, 2015 In the context as part of a service I love today's style of free flowing songs offering our hearts to God. The older hymns are so dreary and slow, not how I picture it from the Old Testament. King David danced around the city praising and worshiping the Lord. I believe this is how worship should be, not standing still reading the words out of a book. I also believe it is as much for us as it is for God. Worship should bring us closer to God, it should open our heart to Him. God does not need us to worship Him, but we surly need to worship Him!!I believe it is all about the heart, Alex. Some people are more emotional than others. If a person sing the words from a hymnal and really mean those words, it is accepted before God. Worship of God is to be done in Spirit, and truth. Scripture speaks of being generous to others as an accepted form of worship. Offering our bodies to God as living sacrifices is considered worship. Many feel they need to work up a lather, or go into a trance to worship God, or be "in the Spirit", but scripture says we are already in the Spirit by the mere fact that the Spirit of God dwells in us. We just need to come to him with authenticity and hearts full of gratitude. Types of music are so subjective that I think it's wrong for me, or anyone else to tell Saints what type of music they should perform before the Lord. As long as it honors Christ, and does not go off into some sensual, unbiblical mess, it should be fine. Energetic or Old school, to Christ be the glory. Saved, I agree...it is all about where the heart is. I did a mission trip to Africa a while back, no suits, no pews, no books to sing out of....but oh my goodness, they worshiped the Lord with such a fire and a passion. There is much we could learn from groups that do not have life as easy as we do! Thank you for your wise words! Interesting. Where did you do your Mission trip to? To Nigeria, it was with a group from where I went to college. A few years back but a life changing experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Summers Posted March 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 225 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 27 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/29/1984 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I never said that there was a biblical basis for suits and ties and pulpits. I also never said that God needed our worship. Perhaps Alex, you could respond to what was actually written. Worship is not about feeing energized. That's the problem. We want worship to be about us and about how we feel. Worship is not about us or energizing us. Worship is about God and honoring him. Making worship about how we feel only highlights the selfishness that pervades this generation of Christians. It is doing worship the way WE want and expecting God to accept what we offer. God and not man, determines how He is approached. Our problem is that we want to worship OUR way and God is not obligated to accept it. Just because we are thrilled with how we worship and just because we are energized by it, it doesn't mean God accepts it. It just means that we have made feelings our god, and we have idolized worship. How could honoring God and worshiping God correctly not leave a person feeling energized? How does one determine if God has "accepted" our worship if not from feedback given by the Holy Spirit? How was God worshipped in the Old Testament? Seems it was with song and dance, do you think that David felt energized as he danced through the streets singing to the Lord? What better way to worship God and honor Him than to be fired up for Him and to feel alive with His spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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