Need advice: letting go of a wrong or bringing it before the body to j

[carlos123]

Hi there, 

 

It's been several years since I have been on this forum and I am not really looking to get re-involved but...at the present moment in time, I could use some advice from a variety of Christians about something the Lord seems to be laying on my heart and was wondering if this forum might be the place to get it?  

 

I don't trust my own heart and also want to get a broad range of input.  Forums are ideal for this kind of input I think.  

 

Let me describe the general nature of the situation I am looking to get input on and what the Lord seemed to lay on my heart this morning so that you all might better be able to give me appropriate input for anyone that might feel led to give me any.  If this forum is not the right place to get input on this please let me know that too so that I might find another forum or place online to get input from other Christians.  

 

Regrettably I simply am not in much daily contact with Christians in real life to enable me to get input from those I do know as readily and as easily as I can get input from Christians online.  

 

Back in December a presumably Christian ministry gave away my bags, which I had stored in their bag check in area for safekeeping while I attended a function of theirs.  I had been given a proper pin to identify my belongings but that didn't do any good.  A couple of cons made such a ruckus that the check in attendants let them in to the check in area to pick out which bags were theirs and just gave them mine!  

 

Within those bags were a LOT of important things.  Including my business laptop, all kinds of identity documents, and other valuable things. 

 

This ministry has been fighting me tooth and nail every step of the way to avoid compensating me fairly for what their personnel gave away. 

 

I made it clear to them (and still stand by this) that I will not sue them or otherwise go to the media with the story of what happened. 

 

So this is not a situation that involves any kind of legal advice.  It will never come to that from my end even if they completely ignore me till the day I die.  

 

I would never drag the name of Christ through the mud in public like going to court would do. 

 

That's the background. 

 

It's taken several months for me to work through the anger, depression, and what have you that resulted from what they foolishly gave away.  I think my heart has more or less healed over this though I still struggle to believe that a righteous God will deal with those who have wronged me.  Eternal judgment doesn't quite satisfy me in the sense that those who have and are wronging me continue on with their lives as if they have done nothing ungodly while I continue to suffer consequences from the wrong done me. 

 

The Lord has provided for me amply and I mean amply such that I have restored my laptop and have otherwise been able to or will shortly be able to replace just about everything I lost materially speaking (with the exception of thousands of emails, programs, documents, photos, videos, and otherwise that are unfortunately lost forever).  

 

So my problem or rather that which I am looking for input on is NOT about how to get things replaced.  That has or will shortly be accomplished without ANY reimbursement from this ministry. 

 

Rather it's about this...

 

I have been praying about whether to just let this go and entrust ultimate judgement of what happened to the Lord since vengeance is his.  

 

This ministry has treated me quite badly (to put it mildy).  

 

They have taken advantage of me as being poor and otherwise unable (seemingly) to do much about however little they have offered to me in the past several months (when they have even responded to my emails). 

 

Now they have gotten into slandering me to the police as being just another of many persons who are out to gouge them and make money under false pretenses from them (I understand that they get 10-15 people a week trying to defraud them of money).

 

Needless to say perhaps they are acting in a very wicked way and not demonstrating at all the fruit of the Spirit or otherwise acting in a godly manner while continuing to get contributions from churches and others to the tune of many millions of dollars (17 million last year alone!).  In my opinion, the reason they get so many contributions is that they are very good at promoting themselves as a blessed and God honoring ministry (while being far less than that in reality) combined with a general sense of deception in the church at large where Christians seem to be easily fooled these days.  

 

This morning I read in Numbers 1 about the Lord setting up judges over Israel through Moses.  To judge the people and to decide disputes. 

 

1 Corinthians 5:12 (ESV) says this...

 

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

 

It would seem that if I simply let things go and ignore their unrighteous conduct in this whole affair that I will be shirking my responsibility before the Lord to be a part of judging sin in the midst of the body (in so far as they are a presumably Christian organization).   While I will not under any circumstances take them to court these verses (and others) seem to point to a way that the Lord might want to use me to expose their wickedness before the body as a whole in the city where I live. 

 

Not to gain satisfaction for myself as a way to extract vengeance or payback for the wrong done to me.  Not to threaten them in any way.  

 

But rather to be a part of dealing with sin in the camp of today's Israel...the church. 

 

Now I am under no illusions as to how churches are going to react to any exposure of sin that occurs through me regarding this ministry.   Quite frankly the church today is a MESS!  Sin is rampant in the camp throughout the church.  I don't know how often I have been involved in situations that should have been judged and dealt with by the church but where members of the body simply ignored sin.  Blatant out in the open and even arrogant sin.  Readily known sin that was even agreed upon by those who should have had the spiritual courage to do something about it but where they did nothing.  

 

Churches today don't want to rock the boat.  They don't want problems.  They want things to stay the way they are.  For whatever gravy train they are on to continue so to speak.  

 

Dealing with sin is nasty business.  As likely to cause hurt feelings and church splits as not.  

 

But the Lord wants us to judge sin in our midst.  

 

And it seems (and this is one of the key things I want input on) that the Lord does not want me to simply let this go (so to speak) for if I do I will be doing no less than many members of the body are prone to do these days.  Ignoring sin in the camp and doing nothing to judge and deal with sin.  

 

Even if I pursue this...most churches will ignore me.  Many might even believe the worst about me.  That I have a hidden agenda.  A hidden desire for vengeance or otherwise.  I will be misunderstood.  Perhaps even denounced.  All of that and more has already happened to me while dealing with other things at other times so it's nothing new but still...though I don't relish any of that...none of that will stop me compared to the desire I have to do the right thing by the Lord.  I am absolutely sick and tired of the baloney being allowed to go on in the midst of the church.  I believe the Lord is too.  

 

Perhaps my patiently going forward to try bring about a judgement of the evil in this ministry from the body, as futile as such a thing may seem, will be used by the Lord to bring about a great repentance.  Who knows.  

 

If anyone has input for me, questions, or otherwise I would surely appreciate hearing such from you.  I would especially like to hear verses that anyone might have laid on their heart that might be relevant to this situation and/or might point to God's perfect will in this for me.  

 

I will prayerfully consider all input.   May the Lord guide the heart of anyone willing to give me input here that his will might become known and made even clearer. 

 

Thanks. 

 

Carlos

[The_Patriot21]

I understand where your coming from, but on the other note perhaps let's understand the ministries side of it. Chances are the people keeping the bags are volunteers-or if their paid they're not paid a lot. A lot of ministries run on a tight budget, and as you said they get several scammers a year, if there was no police report-and especially if the heads of the ministry aren't there they would have a hard time differentiating between a legitimate claim and someone conning them.

The other part of it o don't know exactly what the ministry was persay-but like I said I'm guessing they use a lot of volunteers and the baggage storage is offered as a courtesy. In reality, the fault isn't even there's its those con men that did it. They can't stop criminals. While if I was in charge of the ministry I would try to compensate you for your loss, but I don't think they should be held liable for actions others did.

Here's the real questions you need to ask. Is this an effective ministry? Is this an isolated insident? Would pursing this course of action hurt the ministry to the point that it may not be able to help others? If its a good ministry that is helping others and its an isolated incident I would let it be and accept that everyone including Christians are perfect. But if its not isolated-if its something that happens regularly to lots of people then I would find the other victims and confront the ministry in strength.

[carlos123]

Excellent questions and input Patriot2015 (kinda weird calling you that but I don't know what else to call you ).  

 

What you appear to be saying if I understand you correctly and can narrow your input down to it's essentials is that however wrong they treat one individual the greater good may necessitate overlooking the wrong to that one individual in order to allow the ministry to continue uninterrupted.  

 

Am I understanding the essence of your input Patriot?  I just want to make sure I understand the guts of what you are saying before I respond more fully.  

 

Carlos

[Ezra]

It would appear that this is not really your local church where you are a member, but it is a national or international ministry with millions flowing in. Therefore 1 Cor 5:12 or 6:1-4 would not be applicable.  The first thing you could do is write a letter to the director of this ministry and lay your grievances before him.  You could also mention that if they fail to address your concerns you may inform the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountabilty (ECFA) about your issues and ask them to investigate this ministry. If you feel that this ministry is really not fulfilling its Christian responsibilities overall, then you could consider putting out a carefully worded warning to the Christian public without going into specifics.  You could place that in "Christianity Today" or some similar venue.  As to your personal hurt and frustration, it is best to let that go and leave it with the Lord.

[carlos123]

A few clarifications....

 

The people keeping the bags were almost certainly members who are in their recovery program and who had arrived at a level where the ministry felt that they could be trusted.  And overall, from what I saw of them and with the interaction that I had with them...I would say that they are indeed generally trustworthy and able to handle this responsibility.  The one who gave away my stuff (there was never just one person in the check in area - there were always several) in particular apparently just caved in to pressure from the con men (in this case they were actually two women).  

 

@Patriot...this ministry does not get just a few scammers a year.  I understand that they get somewhere around 10-15 per week or about 520 to 780 scammers per year roughly speaking.  In other words LOTS.  

 

The baggage storage was not offered as a courtesy but as something that one had to use if they wanted to participate in the ministry function at all.  There was no choice other than to either attend (and leave one's bags) or not attend.  When I say ministry function that sounds like something that one could benignly simply not go to.  It was more along the lines of something that in the lives of some would have been a need in that it was a special Christmas Meal.  I personally did not want to be alone around Christmas so I went.  And at that point in time (from what I can recall) I was running a bit low on food so it was useful not only for being around others during Christmas but also in a practical sense...to eat better than I could have eaten on my own.  

 

But aside from myself there were many, many poor persons who came and ate there too.  So the poor come to benefit from what the Ministry had to offer but they were forced by policy, and by a desire to eat a good meal around Christmas, to leave their possessions.  My possessions were given away and also happened to be some of the best looking possessions around which likely explains why the thieves targeted mine.

 

If I pursue making Christians in general aware of what happened to me and how the ministry responded to my desire that they fairly compensate me for my loss it will almost certainly diminish the contributions they receive and will hinder their ministry as such in the future.  I say that based on the reaction of some Christians that I know who know me and know that I am a righteous and honest man (to a fault even) and that the way I was treated was utterly disgraceful and dishonoring to God.  

 

As for this being an isolated instance...I have heard that this sort of thing happens a lot.  Where the Ministry wrongs someone and all but gets away with it because the individuals are too poor or otherwise looked down upon and not considered to be much of a threat to them.

 

Of concern to me, aside from my own issues with what happened, is that this Ministry is dishonoring God.  All my unbelieving friends and acquaintances see this as just more Christian hypocrisy (to put it mildly).  It does not make Christ and faith in him desirable or winsome to them at all.  If the body of Christ in this city lets this type of conduct go unchecked and not judged (and indeed if we continue to support them even) it's like we are all acting like complete hypocrites and condoning by our inaction in the face of their wickedness the very sin that Christ had to die for.  Making a mockery of the need to repent and have true faith (which acts what it believes out) in Christ for the Christians, in this case the visible Christians in this Ministry, treat the poor as they do with impunity and the rest of the Christians do nothing.  

 

While there are some who have vented their anger at this Ministry online at places like Yelp and other such places...they are few and far between and difficult to connect with.  The wrong done to them is generally of a different sort.  Mostly in how they were treated when they were involved in the recovery programs of the Ministry.  I have never needed recovery as they offer it.  I have no criminal record whatever.  I am honest and righteous in my conduct.  They will not easily find fault with my life.  Many others who complain about this Ministry could be compromised in their complaints by their lives.  

 

But...there is truth in many if not all the complaints I have read both from my own personal experience of them and similar ministries in other places that are very similar to them and with whom I have had personal contact and involvement.  

 

There are ministries galore that are out to make a buck from off the needs of the poor.  Their interest is in making and keeping as much money as they can to further their own interests not those of God.  

 

That becomes all the more evident when the Lord brings someone like myself into contact with them where I don't fit the mold of a needy person that they can abuse.  But...as one of the least (so to speak) the way I have been treated is a very real indication of their true love (or lack thereof) for Christ.  Their true love for Christ (or lack thereof) is best seen when there is nothing to be gained from the one they are ministering to and when said person or persons cannot be much of a threat to them.  How do they treat such an individual?

 

@Ezra...this ministry is neither International or National in scope.  Just local but given that the city I live in is quite large where people who profess to be Christians are quite active in what I call hand-out Ministries (Ministries that do the "loving" for those who don't want to do it themselves) it's not surprising that they make millions in contributions. 

 

I already laid out my complaints to the Director at length through emails (which he apparently got but which he all but ignored in that he never responded directly to the things I brought up).  He designated a Ministry head to receive my emails who forwarded them to him.  Only in the last series of emails that we sent back and forth did he even bother to respond to me more directly and that was only in the form of a letter that I would have had to sign if I had accepted their latest offer.  

 

Laying things out before the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountabilty (ECFA) wouldn't do any good either Ezra.  I am sure their financial matters are all in order.  It's not their financial ordering that is the problem.  It is how they treat the poor and how they deal with people that they have wronged in some way.  It's also how they portray themselves to Christians at large to get contributions while dishonoring God through their unloving and unChristlike conduct.  

 

Regarding my personal hurt and frustration what you say about my letting it go is absolutely appropriate and right by the Lord.  I am not to harbor resentment or bitterness in my heart to them.  I think I am past that though I will admittedly have to watch over my heart regarding that as what they did hurt me deeply.  It wasn't what happened that hurt the most.  After all...bad things happen to good people all the time and things are stolen.  That's life.  It was seeing how they dealt with me afterwards and continue to deal with me that hurt far worse...all in the name of Christ.  

 

Carlos

[Guest]

Praying~!

[The_Patriot21]

Excellent questions and input Patriot2015 (kinda weird calling you that but I don't know what else to call you ).  

 

What you appear to be saying if I understand you correctly and can narrow your input down to it's essentials is that however wrong they treat one individual the greater good may necessitate overlooking the wrong to that one individual in order to allow the ministry to continue uninterrupted.  

 

Am I understanding the essence of your input Patriot?  I just want to make sure I understand the guts of what you are saying before I respond more fully.  

 

Carlos

Kinda. But its more then that, its extending grace. None of us are perfect. There are people that I have wronged and people that have wronged me, be it intentionally or otherwise. Since ministries are not perfect they will make mistakes. And they will wrong people. What I'm saying is if you believe that this is overall a good ministry seeking to do the Lords will, then maybe its worth extending them some grace to cover their mistakes. If the ministry isn't seeking Gods will on the whole then perhaps its worth seeking further action. Gods grace covers us in our inequities-and we should seek to extend His grace to each other when we fall short.

[Marilyn C]

Hi carlos123,

 

I really sympathize with you. What a difficult loss & also an undermining of trust in `Christian organisations.` However....we live in a damaged world & we, in general have an expectation that these things shouldn`t happen. But there you are, it did. So my advice, blunt as it is, is to not expect things will be perfect from this damaged world or from Christian organisations as they are run by man, imperfect man.

 

Big lesson, & glad you are trying to move on.

 

Marilyn.

[carlos123]

@FresnoJoe...thanks!  I can always use prayer!  

 

@Patriot (I am going to drop the 2015 part if you don't mind )...hmm...thanks for clarifying but...well...here are some additional thoughts on what you are saying.  

 

First let me say that I completely agree that none of us is perfect.  God knows that I have wronged others at times.  Sometimes intentionally and sometimes not.  As I am sure most of us can say we have done at one time or another. 

 

As you well point out Ministries are no different in that sense. 

 

And by all means we need to extend grace to one another in our imperfectness.  No question Patriot!  

 

God knows we all need grace.  What I mean by that is that we all must not be quick to judge.  When we judge we must do so righteously (I am not of the belief as so many Christians seem to be that we must not judge at all when the Bible clearly says we are to judge those in the church).  We must give each other room to grow.  Room and time to come to the realization that a wrong has been committed to another.  We must be willing to be patient when wronged.  Not returning evil for evil.  To be kind and compassionate.  Easily entreated.  I could go on but I think or at least hope that we both are of the same heart regarding what it means to extend grace. 

 

Having said that though I think it is vitally important with respect to honoring God through our lives and Ministries that we NOT extend grace toward those who are unrepentant of sin.  

 

If I may say so Patriot...I don't think God extends grace to unrepentant children in that sense.  Rather he extends the hand of his discipline.  

 

Just as we must do to those who are unrepentant of sin within the Body.  When I say Body I mean the church at large and am not referring to any particular denomination or visible church structure.  

 

Without discipline...sin will run rampant and all over us as a Body.  Just as it does today (in my opinion and experience). 

 

Love (i.e. extended grace) and discipline.  Both are needed. 

 

Love is not Christlike love if there is no discipline to judge unrepentant sin in our midst. 

 

When I say judge unrepentant sin I mean to come down on the side of righteousness and right conduct and to take a stand against unrighteousness and evil conduct.  To call it out, publicly if necessary, as such and to disassociate ourselves as Christians from every person (or Ministry for that matter) who refuses to humble themselves and likewise side with God's view of what right conduct and heart attitudes are.  

 

Does that make sense? 

 

This Ministry is absolutely unrepentant in how they have treated me.  They have never extended themselves to make things easier on me in view of what they gave away.  They gave away my things which for me, with what I had, was like loosing a loved one to death.  My past or what I had left of it...taken from me in one moment through no fault of my own.  Years of work. Countless hours.  Emotional attachments to photographs and what have you.  And they did absolutely NOTHING.  Not one single solitary thing to help me in a need they caused me despite my making it clear the very day it happened that I had been put out of business and was unable to make money to survive.  They left me wandering the streets without a clue as to what I was going to do. 

 

Unbelievers and atheists who I know rose up to pitch in and help me.  One lent me his charging chord for my Android smartphone and he consoled me as best he could and kept me company.  Another one offered to loan me his iPad.   One of my unbelieving clients (at least I think he is an unbeliever) offered to help me financially on his own initiative to allow me to get a laptop and otherwise get back on my feet. He gave me enough to not only get a laptop but a bus pass and backpack and hand cart and other things. 

 

But the Ministry?  They did absolutely nothing!  

 

They left me bleeding in the gutter wandering off into the night.  Alone and all but forsaken and as nearly destitute as I think I have ever been.  

 

I say all that to say this Patriot.  

 

If the church at large allows such a thing under the notion that we are all imperfect then we are condoning wickedness.  

 

We are saying it's okay to treat people like dirt under our feet because they are poor and unable to do us harm.  

 

It's okay to abuse the poor and even our fellow Christians because we are doing a greater good that makes up for the ill treatment we give some. 

 

It's not a question of our imperfections Patriot.  

 

It's a matter of calling sinful conduct what it is and standing up to it for the glory and honor of the Lord within and through the church.  

 

It's one thing to be imperfect.  It's quite another to be imperfect in our conduct (or if I may say so...sinful...being imperfect sounds so...well...benign and harmless) and to absolutely refuse to call our conduct sinful out of pride, arrogance, idolatry, or other motive.  Even when we are confronted by our sin through others in the church at large.  

 

That kind of sinful attitude MUST be dealt with when it rears up against the knowledge of God.  

 

If it is not dealt with it infects the body of Christ.  Like yeast does to bread.  It leads to more sin.  

 

Worse the unbelievers take notice and blaspheme the name of God through our lack of willingness to correct ourselves as a body and judge the sin our midst.  

 

We must change how we deal with sin in the church.  Unrepentant sin.  Sin that manifests itself and comes out into the open.  

 

Such sin must not be tolerated.  At all!

 

That seems to be what the Lord is laying on my heart about all this.  We have tolerated sin for far too long.  

 

I am open to thinking differently about all this Patriot if you and/or others have some contrary thoughts to share.  

 

But so far...I just can't get around the Lord's express will in the Word that I am to be involved with others in judging those in the church when unrepentant sin manifests itself and comes out into the open as has happened in the case of me and the Ministry in question. 

 

Carlos

[Ezra]

Hi carlos123,

 

I really sympathize with you. What a difficult loss & also an undermining of trust in `Christian organisations.` However....we live in a damaged world & we, in general have an expectation that these things shouldn`t happen. But there you are, it did. So my advice, blunt as it is, is to not expect things will be perfect from this damaged world or from Christian organisations as they are run by man, imperfect man.

 

Big lesson, & glad you are trying to move on.

 

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

 

I don't believe this is an issue of imperfect Christians in an imperfect world. This is more a matter of indifference to genuine complaints and genuine issues which should have been immediately addressed.  Even a secular business would see to it that a disgruntled customer is given due consideration and is mollified, and that too from a purely business motive.  According to Carlos, this is a wider issue than one individual's beefs, and there should be some accountability. As to who should take them to task, that is the real issue.