Once Saved always Saved?

[Mark777]

Butero,

Thoughts do count. If you look upon a woman in lust you have already committed adultery in your heart.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Sorry you dont understand messish Butero

I fear you may be a while on the "children of God" thing, so to save myself the waiting (I can be quite impatient you know) I'll go ahead and do the whole Corinthians thing anyway:

1Cor 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

In the passage, the writer makes distinction between believers and unbelievers, righteous and unrighteous. He states that rather subject ourselves to a public disgracing before a council of unbelievers, it is better to forgive one another as bretheren. The people to which they would subject themselves to in such matters, God brands as fornicators, adulterers extortioners etc... The appeal is not to be like them, nor to subject our own disgrace to them if we have a quarrel with one another because it is the likes of THEY who will not inherit the kingdom of God. And yet we are reassured that we have been sanctified and justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus.

I'm sorry if this is just more messish to you. By the way, Paul condemns himself under your proclamation:

Romans 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

By the way New Pilgrim, I find it funny how you want to say we must go for the exact appearance of what verses say you are using to promote your view out of context, but don't apply that same standard here.

Context is very important and I apply it to this verse as much as any other, I just felt it necessary to explain the context since you dont seem to understand it. I'll try and simplify it for you.

Knowledge of God (that is through belief) does not save you

Obedience to God (following his rules) does not save you

Knowledge of God which, through faith, brings you to salvation in Christ (you are purchased) DOES save you and this saving faith is born out by his good works in you.

If you say you have faith but have know works, you may know God but are not saved.

If you have works through obedience, you may follow Gods rules, but you have not faith unto salvation.

Does that help any?

[Guest NewPilgrim]

By the way Butero, did you read to the end of 1Cor 6 which you cited? I think it has a message for you....

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

He doesn't understand why we would wilfully disobey him, and won't put up with it.

For man is beyond Gods comprehension................

[Ovedya]

Hmmm...And God distringuishes between those sins which are intentional and those which are unintentional, and make provision only for those sins which are of the "oops" variety?

I suppose that begs the question, "What about Adam?" If Adam's sin was of the "oops" variety, then why did God punish him? And if Adam sinned knowingly and willingly, then what if he had died with this sin unforgiven?

Interesting that there is no account of Adam's repentence either way.

[Mark777]

Horizion,

I have already answered this for you much earlier or have you forgotten? Go back and read it. My answer hasn't changed a bit.

Mark

[Ovedya]

Hmmm...And God distringuishes between those sins which are intentional and those which are unintentional, and make provision only for those sins which are of the "oops" variety?

I suppose that begs the question, "What about Adam?" If Adam's sin was of the "oops" variety, then why did God punish him? And if Adam sinned knowingly and willingly, then what if he had died with this sin unforgiven?

Interesting that there is no account of Adam's repentence either way.

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yes he does make a distinction between wilful sins and unintentional ones, lest he wouldn't have used the word WILFULLY.

I see. So then the second part of that verse, "...there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins," and then the next verse, "But a certain fearful expectation of judgment of fire, which is to consume the adversaries." Doesn't that also tell us that there is no hope for those who sin wilfully, since there is no device by which they can be forgiven (the sacrifice of bulls and goats)?

Or maybe this verse is talking about something other than the loss of salvation through willful sin?

[Ovedya]

Hmmm...And God distringuishes between those sins which are intentional and those which are unintentional, and make provision only for those sins which are of the "oops" variety?

I suppose that begs the question, "What about Adam?" If Adam's sin was of the "oops" variety, then why did God punish him? And if Adam sinned knowingly and willingly, then what if he had died with this sin unforgiven?

Interesting that there is no account of Adam's repentence either way.

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yes he does make a distinction between wilful sins and unintentional ones, lest he wouldn't have used the word WILFULLY.

I see. So then the second part of that verse, "...there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins," and then the next verse, "But a certain fearful expectation of judgment of fire, which is to consume the adversaries." Doesn't that also tell us that there is no hope for those who sin wilfully, since there is no device by which they can be forgiven (the sacrifice of bulls and goats)?

Or maybe this verse is talking about something other than the loss of salvation through willful sin?

I already answered this question. When it says there remains no more sacrifice, it means those sins are not automatically covered. When we got saved, all past sins were washed away, but there remains no more sacrifice for those wilful sins we commit later on. We must come to a place of renewed repentance. Then when we confess those sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, thus restoring our relationship to the Father.

I'm sorry, this thread is so long, I didn't have the energy to go back and see your analysis of the verse. I apologize.

So your interpretation of this verse, and the ones surrounding it, is that they speak directly to the issue of unrepented sins in the gentile church?

If that's the case, then why are there so many references to the Jews, and the practices of Judaism in this book?

[kjw47]

Anyone who undertakes a cursory reading of the Bible will easily disagree with this statement.

... which is why it's so important not to just do a cursory reading of the Bible.

Hebrews 5:11-6:12

We see the writer in ch. 5 expressing frustration at the people's lack of spiritual growth. In ch. 6 he tells them they must move on past the basics instead of getting stuck there. He then warns them about the consequences of never progressing, which can lead to their becoming "useless ground" that will be burned.

Note the parallel to Paul's illustration in 1 Cor. 3 of how believers will have their works judged, by burning, and how we can lose everything but ourselves. Further weight is given to this whole section being about judgment of believers' works by verse 9, where the writer contrasts the preceding warning with "things relating to salvation". So he directs his warnings against becoming useless to the same people he is convinced are saved. After this, he returns to the discussion on Melchizedek.

In the past I held to a more popular interpretation that treats this as a hypothetical situation. In other words, if it were possible to lose salvation, you could never be brought back and saved again. Another view is that this is only directed at 1st century Jews who were in danger of returning to legalism, but that's a pretty weak argument IMHO.

Hebrews 10:19-39

Chapter 10 begins with a discussion of the powerlessness of the law and animal sacrifices to save anyone. But in verse 17 we see that once our sins have been forgiven, there is "no longer any offering for sin", which is the object of the "therefore" of verse 18. We have confidence by the blood of Jesus because we have been forgiven. It goes on to speak of assurance and our having been washed and sprinkled and purified, all in the past tense.

Then in verse 26, we see the flip side of "no more sacrifice for sins": if we deliberately keep on sinning after having "the knowledge of the truth" we can expect the wrath of God. But what is this judgment? Physical death or spiritual death? Loss of rewards and blessings, or loss of salvation? Does "knowledge of the truth" equate to salvation, or only hearing the gospel?

To answer that, we can ask more questions: Was Jesus' sacrifice enough to pay for ALL our sins or not? If it was, and I believe this is what the Bible teaches, then I couldn't possibly commit sins he didn't pay for. So the language concerning "no more sacrifice for sins" couldn't possibly apply to someone who has been saved, and therefore "knowledge of the truth" cannot refer to salvation here. (The difference between this passage and chapter 6 is that the people of chapter 6 had "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" etc.)

In verse 30 we see that "The Lord will judge his people". Did they cease to be "His people" when they were judged? Or did they just suffer because of their unfaithfulness? Replacement theologists will insist that since they believe the church replaced Israel, that God indeed abandoned his people and they are no longer his. But I reject this view and believe God made unilateral promises to Israel that cannot be broken, even by Israel's unfaithfulness. So if God's wrath can burn against his people without his abandoning them and disowning them, can he not also bring judgment and wrath upon his adopted children without casting them away?

In verses 35-36 we read that confidence has great reward and that endurance will let us receive what is promised. This is "deeds/rewards" language, not salvation language, for salvation is a gift. Nothing can be both a gift and a wage, so if salvation is a gift it cannot be connected with rewards at all.

These are very difficult passages, and we'll never resolve OSAS in this life, but I think there's enough to assure me that Jesus did pay for all my sins and I can never commit one he didn't pay for. So I have absolute confidence of reaching heaven, not because of my own goodness, but because of Jesus' sacrifice for me. Once I accepted that payment, it was credited to my account, and I can never empty it.

Hi Friend God said through his inspired writer at--1 john 3:9-10-- That the workers of righteousness are the children of God, and cannot practice sin. Practicers of sin are the children of satan.--- And Paul said that there is no sacrafice ( Jesus sacrafice ) for those who practice sin at Hebrews 10:26-- John said at-- 1 John 3:4 that sin is iniquities ( lawlessness in some bibles ) 1 John 3:6 Do not practice sin.( all utterances of God through writers.) Believe God-- you do not want to here these words from Jesus on judgement day. Matt 7:21-23--- You see all these were told they were saved by their teachers, they even did powerful works in Jesus name ( out of a very powerful love for Jesus no doubt ) And when one puts these teachings of God and his son together with Matt 24:13 One must conclude that no mortal man alive can tell another that he is saved. That mortal man would have to be able to read anothers true heart. all the way till the end. impossible. So what does one think the problem was for those powerful workers for Jesus-- practiced sin. because they thought once saved always saved.