Once Saved always Saved?

[Arthur Durnan]

And what about my Ferrari Testarosa in automatic?

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for John 3:16 & everlasting life!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Mark777]

Good Sunday Morning to all of you,

Sorry Horizioneast, I had company last night and was too tired afterwards. And besides that, I really thought you guys were being silly. But if you want to claim that your last few posts were serious, thats your problem. But anyway, here is the obvious:

The word was what Jesus had been saying - "believe on me" - the sign of being truly born again is the keeping of this belief. Whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life. The passages are endless - which I have already posted in list form many times and you have never bothered to answer them. John 10 - "they will follow me, I give eternal life to them, they shall never perish, and NO ONE (that includes yourself if you are a someone)will snatch them from God" What you are guilty of is taking a snippet from the context and trying to twist it beyond its intended meaning.

Also, if, like st. worm suggested, Jesus was referring to only His ability to lose nothing - seeing that He is God - it would be silly for God to be saying, "I will lose nothing unless you lose yourself". It doesn't say anything of the sort. It says the will of God is for Jesus to lose nothing. Now, I am willing to bet that is whats going to happen. The text doesn't say one can over power God and it is beyond silly to suggest it. Ya know, eternal life is eternal life. That means non-ending everlasting life. You cannot perish - you are incorruptible - you are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit - you are His workmanship - it is Christ who now lives in you - etc......... I think that I will believe God and not you.

And exactly what have I cut and pasted except potions of Luther to show you guys that it is completely wrong that your man Luther believed that salvation could be lost. I did take note that the silence was profound. And what I posted is the tip of the iceberg. You forced me to post them with your silliness. And I also posted a good defense of Hebrews chapter 6 - but it was nothing that I haven't said already. The hope was that someone would comment. (and you decided not to comment on it. I wonder why?)

Mark

Edited June 11, 2006 by Mark777

[st. Worm]

quote from Mark777:

And exactly what have I cut and pasted except potions of Luther to show you guys that it is completely wrong that your man Luther believed that salvation could be lost.

SW:

From Luther's commentary of Galatians:

To reject the grace of God is a common sin, of which everybody is guilty

who sees any righteousness in himself or in his deeds. And the Pope is the

sole author of this iniquity. Not content to spoil the Gospel of Christ, he

has filled the world with his cursed traditions, e.g., his bulls and

indulgences.

We will always affirm with Paul that either Christ died in vain, or else the

Law cannot justify us. But Christ did not suffer and die in vain. Hence, the

Law does not justify.

If my salvation was so difficult to accomplish that it necessitated the death

of Christ, then all my works, all the righteousness of the Law, are good for

nothing. How can I buy for a penny what cost a million dollars? The Law

is a penny's worth when you compare it with Christ. Should I be so stupid

as to reject the righteousness of Christ which cost me nothing, and slave

like a fool to achieve the righteousness of the Law which God disdains?

Man's own righteousness is in the last analysis a despising and rejecting of

the grace of God. No combination of words can do justice to such an

outrage. It is an insult to say that any man died in vain. But to say that

Christ died in vain is a deadly insult. To say that Christ died in vain is to

make His resurrection, His victory, His glory, His kingdom, heaven, earth,

God Himself, of no purpose and benefit whatever.

That is enough to set any person against the righteousness of the Law and

all the trimmings of men's own righteousness, the orders of monks and

friars, and their superstitions.

Who would not detest his own vows, his cowls, his shaven crown, his

bearded traditions, yes, the very Law of Moses, when he hears that for such

things he rejected the grace of God and the death of Christ. It seems that

such a horrible wickedness could not enter a man's heart, that he should

reject the grace of God, and despise the death of Christ. And yet this

atrocity is all too common. Let us be warned. Everyone who seeks

righteousness without Christ, either by works, merits, satisfactions,

actions, or by the Law, rejects the grace of God, and despises the death of

Christ.

for Mark:

KEY WORDS: REJECTION OF GRACE. When grace and faith are rejected one is no longer within the realm of assurance of salvation. Faith is still a requirement for justification. Without it we are doomed.

[Mark777]

st Worm,

You have attached your own meaning to certain vague phrases. If you were to be honest, you would go back and explain the Luther quotes that I posted where he is completely clear that salvation cannot be lost and that it was not a concern for a true believer who is FREE. If Luther believed salvation could be lost, nothing else he taught makes sense.

Mark

[st. Worm]

Mark I give you the marathon award for endurance with regard to posts but unfortunately many of them are inaccurate and of little value. Your Luther quote postings (at least the ones I saw) do not say what you claim, but I am not surprised. You do the same thing with Scripture. You like the assurance verses and explain away the warning verses. We must believe all of God's Word even if it makes no sense to us and doesn't appeal to our reason.

sw

[Mark777]

st. worm.

It is you that does not acknowledge "I will lose nothing" and "eternal life". My defense of the "warnings" is that you are applying home made definitions of phrases like "falling away". You want salvation to be unsure for whatever reason you have but they are not scriptural. And about Luther, you refuse to hear his clear words - what am I supposed to do if you won't listen to your own dude?

You can be as insulting as you please but it doesn't change the fact that you are in denial.

Mark

[Shelak]

Dear Fellow Debators~~~

Below you will find a brief biography of a victorian era preacher and his sermon on "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" I was recearching this subject online and found this wonderful piece ... what do you all think? Keep in mind that this piece is from the 1800's, not our own era.

Shelak

OTIS ASA BURGESS.

OTIS ASA BURGESS was born August 26, 1829, in the town of Thompson, Windham County, Connecticut. Thomas Burgess, one of his paternal ancestors, joined the Pilgrim Colony in 1637. His maternal ancestors were of the same stock.

He remained in Connecticut till eight years of age, when he removed to Norwich, Chenango County, New York. The next nine years of his life were spent in attending school four months in the year, and working the remaining eight months "amid the rocks and stumps of a sterile farm." During this time, and when about fourteen, his mother died. This event made a strong impression on his mind. His religious training had been after the straightest sect of Calvinism, but his mother's death melted him down so that he laid aside the "doctrine of the decrees," and began to earnestly "seek after God." Accordingly he went through the entire programme of the popular method of "getting religion" at the "mourners' bench," but did not succeed. Others professed to have "got" it at the same meeting, but all his prayers and tears were unavailing. He finally concluded that he was either predestined to be damned, or given over to a hardness of heart. In this terrible state of mind, he was led to almost hate God, and utterly reject all revealed religion.

[Mark777]

Martin Luther:

"...and that a Christian man needs no work, no law, for his salvation; for by faith he is free from all law, and in perfect freedom does gratuitously all that he does, seeking nothing either of profit or of salvation--since by the grace of God he is already saved and rich in all things through his faith--but solely that which is well-pleasing to God."

You have to do a lot of twisting to avoid passages like this and his writings are full of them.

I think I will start a thread posting them for any commentary you guys might want to give. I will start it in a day or so. Must gather material....O BOY O BOY!!!

Anyone who wishes to pursue Luther's beliefs can go there.

Mark

[st. Worm]

Mark quote:

Martin Luther:

"...and that a Christian man needs no work, no law, for his salvation; for by faith he is free from all law, and in perfect freedom does gratuitously all that he does, seeking nothing either of profit or of salvation--since by the grace of God he is already saved and rich in all things through his faith--but solely that which is well-pleasing to God."

You have to do a lot of twisting to avoid passages like this and his writings are full of them.

I think I will start a thread posting them for any commentary you guys might want to give. I will start it in a day or so. Must gather material....O BOY O BOY!!!

Anyone who wishes to pursue Luther's beliefs can go there.

Mark

SW:

Mark dear soul, Luther is saying quite correctly that we are saved through faith alone in Christ and not works of the Law. But Luther also knew that faith could be thrown away. Nothing in your quote says Luther believed faith could not be rejected and discarded. You do agree that faith is required for justification? Or perhaps you believe that once saved we can deny Christ, reject faith and laugh at grace.

[Mark777]

Horizion,

Sorry I missed your last post. Which was funny. I don't think it does you much good trying to bully people. I did not avoid answering you - I straightened out your silliness. If a person keeps Jesus' words - that you need to believe in Him - that person will never die. What is responsible for a person believing. Well, GOD!! Is that clear enough. Like you can't read Scripture yourself. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. It is the fruit of salvation that the person saved abides in Christ's words. You are needlessly trying to battle with English construction. "If" doesn't mean that the person is responsible but "When" a person abides they will not die. Because abiding happens because of God not because of man.

Mark