"Worthy"

[Guest Butero]

Thanks for clearing things up.  I too believe in the rapture of the saints that are watching and waiting for the Lord to return.  I am not speaking of two events or two raptures, but one rapture that wouldn't include all Christians.  It would only be those Christians who are living a holy lifestyle to the best of their ability and watching for Jesus to return.  The lukewarm Christians would be left to face the great tribulation period, and of course, that would mean they would be purified in the most horrific of ways as a result of the terrible things to come. 

 

I agree with you 100 percent that we have no way of knowing when those events will occur, and we certainly can be mistaken in some of the conclusions we come to when it comes to Bible prophecy.  The book does still appear to be sealed to some point.  I have found this discussion very interesting. 

[George]

 

Thanks for clearing things up.  I too believe in the rapture of the saints that are watching and waiting for the Lord to return.  I am not speaking of two events or two raptures, but one rapture that wouldn't include all Christians.  It would only be those Christians who are living a holy lifestyle to the best of their ability and watching for Jesus to return.  The lukewarm Christians would be left to face the great tribulation period, and of course, that would mean they would be purified in the most horrific of ways as a result of the terrible things to come.

This is what Watchman Nee spoke of.  Basically a "firstfruits" rapture -- the "mature" fruit harvested first in understanding of the Firstfruits harvest in Israel.  Then the "lukewarm" believers -- being Christians who've not "matured" and are forced through the maturity process through tribulation.  And then harvested at the end of the age.

 

Personally, I find it an interesting concept -- and while I disagree with it -- there's some interesting parallels to the harvest of Israel and the idea of a "firstfruits" harvest.

 

I honestly find the gathering of the Saints as a universal event -- with no distinction between saints.  However, the idea of the virgins -- 5 were prepared and 5 were unprepared -- those with oil and those without oil -- should be a warning to the Saints!  As all were expecting the "bridegroom" -- thus anticipating a Wedding to come -- but only 5 were truly ready to see the Bridegroom!

 

We're about preparing the "bride" of Messiah in anticipation of His return!  If we're truly ready -- then we don't need to "know" exactly how it will play out -- because we're already prepared for it!

[George]

I posted as it pertains to this discussion.

[Guest Butero]

I want to take a look at that passage from Luke 21:34-36 a little closer.

 

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. 

 

The first question I must ask is who is Jesus speaking to?  Is he speaking to those who believe in him, or to everyone?  If he is speaking to those who believe in him, then this is a serious warning to us as well to make sure we watch how we live.  We aren't to be seduced into surfeiting and drunkenness.  We are not to get distracted by the cares of this life.  If we do those things, the day of the Lord's return will occur when we are not expecting it.  Why would he say this to those who don't believe in him?  They won't be looking for him to return in the first place.  That brings into question, why should we care if all Christians are on equal and solid ground, regardless of how we are living?  So what if that day comes upon us unawares?  We are saved by grace. 

 

Jesus says that as a snare, his return shall come on all those who dwell on the face of the earth.  I take that to mean that nobody knows when Jesus will return, so his coming will be a surprise.  It will happen when nobody is expecting it.  That tells me I need to be looking for his return at every moment of every day, if I am wise.  Again, why would this matter if every Christian is on solid ground because we are saved by grace?  What snare?  We could be committing adultery and still go in the rapture if we believe all professing Christians go in the rapture, so why would it matter if Jesus comes when we aren't looking for him? 

 

Verse 36 is the one you said the name Worthy Boards is based on, and this one is a very serious warning to those who are believers in Christ.  I want to break this verse down and look at it very close. 

 

1.  Watch ye therefore...  How do I watch?  I don't think that means to sit outside and look at the eastern skies for Jesus to return.  I think it means to watch how we live. Why do that if every professing Christian goes in the rapture?

 

2.  and pray always...  I obviously cannot be in the prayer closet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so how do I do that?  I take it that this would mean we are to be in constant communication with the Lord all the time.  Enoch it is said walked with God.  We can and should do that all the time. 

 

3.  that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass...  That is something we are to pray all the time.  If all professing Christians are already worthy to escape the great tribulation period, why pray this prayer?  Why watch?  Why pray always?  It makes no logical sense if we are all guaranteed to escape in the rapture and escape those things that are going to come to pass.

 

4.  and to stand before the Son of man.  That is where those who escape will be during the tribulation period.  They will be standing before the Son of man. 

 

The reason I bring this up is because you said that while you are open to the possibility that not all Christians will go in the first rapture, you don't think that is the case.  Why the warning if every professing Christian is guaranteed to be part of that great escape?  We could be falling down drunk in a bar hitting on a married woman when Jesus returns, and if all professing Christians go in the rapture, that would include us.  We aren't watching.  We aren't waiting.  We aren't praying.  Where is the snare?  What am I missing? 

 

[missmuffet]

I want to take a look at that passage from Luke 21:34-36 a little closer.

 

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. 

 

The first question I must ask is who is Jesus speaking to?  Is he speaking to those who believe in him, or to everyone?  If he is speaking to those who believe in him, then this is a serious warning to us as well to make sure we watch how we live.  We aren't to be seduced into surfeiting and drunkenness.  We are not to get distracted by the cares of this life.  If we do those things, the day of the Lord's return will occur when we are not expecting it.  Why would he say this to those who don't believe in him?  They won't be looking for him to return in the first place.  That brings into question, why should we care if all Christians are on equal and solid ground, regardless of how we are living?  So what if that day comes upon us unawares?  We are saved by grace. 

 

Jesus says that as a snare, his return shall come on all those who dwell on the face of the earth.  I take that to mean that nobody knows when Jesus will return, so his coming will be a surprise.  It will happen when nobody is expecting it.  That tells me I need to be looking for his return at every moment of every day, if I am wise.  Again, why would this matter if every Christian is on solid ground because we are saved by grace?  What snare?  We could be committing adultery and still go in the rapture if we believe all professing Christians go in the rapture, so why would it matter if Jesus comes when we aren't looking for him? 

 

Verse 36 is the one you said the name Worthy Boards is based on, and this one is a very serious warning to those who are believers in Christ.  I want to break this verse down and look at it very close. 

 

1.  Watch ye therefore...  How do I watch?  I don't think that means to sit outside and look at the eastern skies for Jesus to return.  I think it means to watch how we live. Why do that if every professing Christian goes in the rapture?

 

2.  and pray always...  I obviously cannot be in the prayer closet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so how do I do that?  I take it that this would mean we are to be in constant communication with the Lord all the time.  Enoch it is said walked with God.  We can and should do that all the time. 

 

3.  that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass...  That is something we are to pray all the time.  If all professing Christians are already worthy to escape the great tribulation period, why pray this prayer?  Why watch?  Why pray always?  It makes no logical sense if we are all guaranteed to escape in the rapture and escape those things that are going to come to pass.

 

4.  and to stand before the Son of man.  That is where those who escape will be during the tribulation period.  They will be standing before the Son of man. 

 

The reason I bring this up is because you said that while you are open to the possibility that not all Christians will go in the first rapture, you don't think that is the case.  Why the warning if every professing Christian is guaranteed to be part of that great escape?  We could be falling down drunk in a bar hitting on a married woman when Jesus returns, and if all professing Christians go in the rapture, that would include us.  We aren't watching.  We aren't waiting.  We aren't praying.  Where is the snare?  What am I missing? 

Many are Christians in name only.They are not born again Christians.

[Guest Butero]

Is it your conclusion BoPeep, that Jesus is speaking to people who are real Christians and phony Christians?  Are you suggesting he is warning the tares to watch and pray always?  That doesn't make logical sense to me.  I am also wondering what did you mean makes sense to you?  Was it the teachings of Watchman Nee, and when you say they make sense, do you mean you agree with them? 

[George]

Honestly Butero, I never said Worthy Boards was based on it -- it was Worthy News -- and this is an offshoot of the original site and how the news organization got its original name.

 

The idea of being found "worthy" is something that I believe most Christians in the States don't take to heart -- if they did, then we wouldn't be seeing the rapid moral decay as fast as we're seeing it -- and thus is a country ripe for judgment!

 

If we strive for holiness and righteousness -- then we're striving for perfection -- this is the mark of a mature believer.  As Paul so stated,

 

Php 3:12  Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13  Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15  Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.

 

The idea of being "worthy" is connected to maturity, and this is our hope -- to create mature believers!

 

As far as "escaping" -- and what that entails -- I just know I want to be "found" worthy -- if so, then I don't have to try and figure out what I'm escaping from! 

[Guest Butero]

The idea of being found "worthy" is something that I believe most Christians in the States don't take to heart -- if they did, then we wouldn't be seeing the rapid moral decay as fast as we're seeing it -- and thus is a country ripe for judgment!

 

 

George, on this point, I agree with you 100 percent. 

[missmuffet]

Is it your conclusion BoPeep, that Jesus is speaking to people who are real Christians and phony Christians?  Are you suggesting he is warning the tares to watch and pray always?  That doesn't make logical sense to me.  I am also wondering what did you mean makes sense to you?  Was it the teachings of Watchman Nee, and when you say they make sense, do you mean you agree with them? 

"Why are there so many fake Christians?"

Answer:A Christian can be defined as a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior from sin (John 3:16;Acts 16:31;Ephesians 2:8–9). And in the heart of the Christian resides the Spirit of Christ (Ephesians 3:17;1 Corinthians 6:19;Romans 8:11). Now, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9), and this person, then, is not a Christian. Thus, the term “fake Christian” is a misnomer. You are a Christian or you are not a Christian; one is either with God or against God (Matthew 12:30).

That being said, this question is certainly a legitimate one in the minds of many people. And this is likely due to the behavior of some Christians; however, it is also likely because of the behavior of many who think they are Christians or profess to be Christians, but who are not. The reasons many believe they are true Christians when they are not are many and varied. The false teaching that is so prevalent these days is certainly one reason. When churches eschew teaching sound doctrine, the end result will be congregants who do not know the truth of God’s Word. How can they keep in step with the Spirit, when the Truth is not in them?

Also, some believe their recitation of a prayer or responding to an “altar call” alone may have turned them into a Christian. Many believe their religious traditions, such as being baptized as an infant, secured a spot in heaven for them, or that their plentiful good works alone have put them in good standing with God. And, of course, some believe church attendance alone guarantees salvation. The point is that many who profess to be Christians are not Christians at all. Yet they complacently remain convinced that all is well with their soul. Sadly, many will live their entire lives believing they were Christians only to one day hear these words from Jesus Christ: “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:23).

The clear teaching of the Bible is that when someone is saved his life will most definitely change as he is a “new creation, the old has gone and the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A true, born-again Christian will strive to bring glory and honor to Christ by living a life that is pleasing to God (1 Peter 1:15–16;4:1–4). True saving faith will indeed produce works or “fruit” in the life of the believer (James 2:17,26). Thus, if there are no works of love in one’s life, a careful self-examination is certainly called for. The apostle Paul instructed those in Corinth to do this very thing: “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you – unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). Indeed, any profession of faith that does not result in a changed life and good works is a false profession, and the professor is not a Christian.

Now, even though the lifestyle of true Christians does reflect the presence of Christ in their hearts, we know we are not perfect. Christians do sin, and the apostle John makes it clear that we deceive ourselves if we think otherwise (1 John 1:8). And when Christians do sin, rest assured there are multitudes just lying in wait to use their “slip-up” to further denigrate the true body of believers. That is why Paul admonished the church in Thessalonica to abstain from even the appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) and to live in such a way as to “win the respect of outsiders” (1Thessalonians 4:12).

What Christians will not do, however, is engage in repeated or habitual sin (1 John 3:6). One who engages in deliberate and habitual sin is simply proving that he does not know Christ and therefore cannot be abiding in Him even though he may live his life under the vast umbrella of religion and is thought, therefore, by many to be a Christian.

As believers mature in their faith, they will exhibit more and more evidence of their true Christian nature, such as their love for God, repentance from sin, separation from the world, spiritual growth, and obedient living. As Paul told the Romans, the genuine child of God has been set free from sin and has become a slave to God, and the result is eternal life (Romans 6:22).

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/fake-Christians.html#ixzz3azZQnXbb

[Guest Butero]

There is no question there are fake Christians, but you still never answered why Jesus would warn fake Christians to watch and pray always.  That doesn't make any logical sense.