Rev 20

[Bible2]

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

2 Tim 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

Amen.

 

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

2 Tim 1:12  . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

Amen.

 

God is able to keep that which Christians have committed to him against that day (2 Timothy 1:12b). But God isn't willing to take away their free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that it will ultimately result in the loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

 

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

Your illustration of Esau losing his inheritance seems to be mixing apples with oranges when it come to be concerning his remaining a son.

 

Note that while believers are the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death if he refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sin even more sorely than he did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

[Larry 2]

 

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

2 Tim 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

Amen.

 

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

 

 

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

2 Tim 1:12  . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

Amen.

 

God is able to keep that which Christians have committed to him against that day (2 Timothy 1:12b). But God isn't willing to take away their free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that it will ultimately result in the loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

 

 

 

Larry 2 said in post 10:

 

Your illustration of Esau losing his inheritance seems to be mixing apples with oranges when it come to be concerning his remaining a son.

 

Note that while believers are the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death if he refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sin even more sorely than he did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

Dear Brother Bible2, do you ever sin?

Have you repented repeatedly, and sin the same sin again?

Would that negate all the previous sorrow you expressed?

What of sin you're not aware of; you went one MPH over the speed limit.

This is submission to authority. Rom Chap 13.

You may have been angered with a brother in traffic, had an accident,

and were killed. Are you going to hell?

 

No my friend, I am not of the opinion of being saved, lost, and saved again, etc.

I understand that my salvation is based upon what Jesus did, my acceptance of

that fact, and God's continuing grace toward me. Even me that God foreknew before

the foundation of the world, He called just because He knew I would receive

Jesus, and He has predestined me to be conformed to the image of Jesus;

not forced us to be saved. 

 

It is Him that gives the increase to my life as

His workmanship (Eph 2:10).

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure,

and according to Rom 8:4 it is God instead of us working in us that the righteousness of

the law might be fulfilled IN US (not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 

 

God bless you in Jesus' name.

[Serving]

Greetings Larry 2,

 

Nice to "meet you" brother & thanks for joining in.

 

Now, fellow brethren, I would not say that I disagree with the below summation .. I would just say that to me, there is just a little more involved that is needed to complement & complete it .. 

 

 

 

 

As believers in Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1) and as Jesus walks among the candlesticks (Churches) we are being judged as to our spiritual walk, and it is manifest in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. This is the Judgment seat ongoing, and we read in Rev 22:12, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

 

 

Which is this ..

 

There is a metaphoric "standing before the judgment seat of God" which is played out daily within our walk which agrees with your above discernment .. and I agree too .. but there is also a literal "standing before the judgment seat of God" that no man is exempt from .. here is a small example to best explain this point (which point & which group is not whom my main post was about.. nevertheless) :

 

Believers are being addressed here :

 

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

Since those above were still in their earthly walk in the Lord, being judged as they go like as you pointed out in your fine reply, it is the last statement, however, "for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" that is otherwise a contradiction to the whole "daily walk judgment premise" unless .. unless there is more to this subject than meets the eye ..

 

.. Notice this last statement overrides their daily judgment premise you touched upon in your fine reply and clearly denotes a future & separate event all together .. so because of that clear separation,  we can now identify from the above that we indeed have a duality at work here  for this matter of judgment which is this : One is metaphorical (daily walk judgment "before" The Lord) and one is literal (set aside event) ..

 

That being said, I just want to remind that my post is about the 2nd resurrection judgment & not about the 2nd coming gathering of the saints event and their received mercy .. yet it is still relevant for me to continue on this theme too I suppose .. so I will continue if you'd bear with me just a little more :

 

 

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

 

Easy enough .. skip forward..

 

 

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

 

Again, believers are being addressed here .. hence "every one of us" .. so & again, even for this believing group (which group my main post is not about) .. for even them does this apply ..thus .. unless there was a set aside & direct / literal standing before God to come, this statement too would be a contradiction ..  a contradiction if .. only if we denoted His judgment as nothing more than an ongoing "daily walk type understanding" for which one group's literal day before the judgment seat would then be exempted .. which outcome then would only serve to again make all of the above a contradiction still .. (if my post were about this subject that is).

 

 

For clearly there is more to this  .. Again .. there is a metaphorical rendering of the saints ongoing judgment whereby they metaphorically & daily "stand before the judgment seat of The Lord" opposed to a literal & set aside personal summoning before The Lord which the above scriptures to me are clearly imparting.

 

 

YET .. even this understanding still leaves the question of the 2nd coming saints and their set aside day to literally stand before the judgment seat of Christ  which believers are obviously represented in the above Romans script which needs to incorporate the "changed in the twinkling of an eye" within it's parameters .. but that is another subject not related to my point or this post's intent which is only concerning the 2nd resurrection judgment & it's unbelieving participants & their chance of even then gaining mercy once their works based judgment has been executed.

 

 

 

So in conclusion, & regarding my main point within my main post .. is that the 2nd resurrection clearly shows unbelievers can pass the works based judgment by God's imposed standard which judgment passed then obviously leads to them also receiving mercy to finish off the process & allow them to join eternity (which admittedly is even still a simplified generalization of a more involved process being played out)

 

 

But I do understand where you are coming from Larry .. I hope you can see where I am coming from a little better now?

 

 

Regardless .. God bless. 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

 

Hello to another Aussie.  My thoughts are that Christians are in the book of life & are therefore not judged at the great white throne. We come before Christ at His `bema ` seat where the rewards are given out. However all others will be judged at the great white throne.

 

Those who have rebelled against God, will be judged - to the second death, while those who never knew Christ (deepest darkest Africa....etc) will be judged according to how they lived their lives with the light they were given - that is their conscience -  the light God has given all mankind, of His wondrous universe & also the moral conscience that tells us whether our actions are morally right or not. If they obey what they we given, then they would be part of the nations on the new earth.

 

Marilyn.

[Serving]

Hi Serving,

 

Hello to another Aussie.  My thoughts are that Christians are in the book of life & are therefore not judged at the great white throne. We come before Christ at His `bema ` seat where the rewards are given out. However all others will be judged at the great white throne.

 

Those who have rebelled against God, will be judged - to the second death, while those who never knew Christ (deepest darkest Africa....etc) will be judged according to how they lived their lives with the light they were given - that is their conscience -  the light God has given all mankind, of His wondrous universe & also the moral conscience that tells us whether our actions are morally right or not. If they obey what they we given, then they would be part of the nations on the new earth.

 

Marilyn.

 

Greetings Marilyn C,

 

Thank you .. yes .. this is what I am saying .. the 2nd resurrection is another group all together .. and those unbelievers in the 2nd resurrection are indeed finding grace once their works based judgment has been decided upon .. glad you can see my point .. TWO resurrections .. TWO groups .. different judgments for both .. you just said it far better

 

God bless thee my little Aussie sister

[Larry 2]

So in conclusion, & regarding my main point within my main post .. is that the 2nd resurrection clearly shows unbelievers can pass the works based judgment by God's imposed standard which judgment passed then obviously leads to them also receiving mercy to finish off the process & allow them to join eternity (which admittedly is even still a simplified generalization of a more involved process being played out)

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you're saying an unbeliever can pass a works judgment something similar to Armstrongism doctrines, and be given another chance at receiving Christ at that time. Regardless of works all without Christ have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Thus the ultimate conclusion of their judgment is whether their name was found in the book of life.

 

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. As I wrote somewhere earlier, believer are not at the Great White Throne judge; only the dead. Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (not the book of life), according to their works. 

 

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be It seems to me that Jesus has already made up His mind by the time we appear before Him. No further judgment needed.

 

Thanks Serving.  

[Bible2]

Larry 2 said in post 12:

 

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure . . .

 

Amen.

 

But note that while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

[Bible2]

Serving said in post 15:

 

TWO resurrections .. TWO groups .. different judgments for both ...

 

That's right.

 

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

[Larry 2]

 

Larry 2 said in post 12:

 

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure . . .

 

Amen.

 

But note that while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

 

No disagreement with that, but Jonah sure must have thought God took his free will.

[Serving]

 

Does anybody agree with the below?

You've got a correct understanding of how events will flow chronologically in the end.  The bulk of Revelation is in chronological sequence, with a few events in what might be called "parentheses".

 

As to the books, I believe that for each individual both good and bad will be side-by-side, therefore the judgment will flow from the *profile* of each individual (not separate books for good and bad).  There will be degrees of torment in Hell based upon the evidence.

 

But the ultimate test wil be whether that person's name is found in the Book of Life -- and that comes only by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. God wants to see everyone's name in the Book of Life, but those who reject or ignore Christ and the Gospel will be absent.

 

 

Hi there Ezra,

 

There are a few possible scenario's for the way the books will be used so your speculating is as good as mine on this brother, however it plays out with their useage, it's a shame scripture isn't more specific on that subject though .. I love every detail small or great & so not knowing kind of bugs me    ..  anyway, thanks for sharing your view .. it's an interesting subject to me I must say.

 

God bless.