When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled?

[SueZQ]

 

This may seem to be a simple question, but think about it first.

 

James says this is his letter:

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (Referring to an event in Genesis 22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James quoting Genesis 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 James 2:12-24

 

The first question is, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

The apostle Paul also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4

 

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Rom 4:1-6

 

The second question is, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

 

The Moment

 

Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (HCSB)

 

Abraham

(when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

Believed

(when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 (KJV)

 

I Believe

 

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Hebrews 11:17-19

 

Amen

[Tristen]

 

 

So, to summarise my position;

I don’t think your interpretation of James makes sense in the light of either Genesis, or the immediate context in James itself. And I don’t think your appeal to other uses of “scripture being fulfilled” stacks up to sensible scrutiny. Therefore I feel no obligation to be bound to your narrow definition of “fulfilled”. And James can be reasonably interpreted to be consistent with the rest of scripture.

 

 

Concerning James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"

You're simply saying that it's not a prophecy because you say it's not a prophecy.

Compare with other places the Bible uses this same kind of expression and tell us which are not viewing the particular scripture referenced as a prophecy.

Mr 15:28  So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with the transgressors."

Joh 13:18  "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Joh 19:24  They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says: "They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots." Therefore the soldiers did these things.

Joh 19:28  After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

Joh 19:36  For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken."

Joh 15:25  "But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

Mt 2:15  and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

Mt 2:23  And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

 Mt 4:14-16 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."

Mt 8:17  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."

Mt 12:17-21  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.  He will not quarrel nor cry out, Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;  And in His name Gentiles will trust."

Mt 27:9  Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced,

Mt 27:35  Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: "They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots."

Shall I go on? Just like James 2:23, each one of these speaks of the scriptures being fulfilled and then quotes the verse they are referring to. As I see it the overwhelming evidence is against your saying that James is not speaking of Gen 15:6 as a prophecy when he says, "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness'"

And as I've shown, James' usage of Gen 15:6 as a prophecy is consistent with his argument, contrary to Paul's usage of Gen 15:6. It doesn't make sense to you as a prophecy because you insist upon an interpretation which doesn't fit. You might at least try to entertain the notion that Gen 15:6 is a prophecy, an idea which as you may note above is overwhelmingly support by the rest of the Bible, and come up with an interpretation consistent with that notion.

Good Biblestudying to you

 

 

Hey Bcbsr,

You said, “Concerning James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"You're simply saying that it's not a prophecy because you say it's not a prophecy.”

 

I have actually explicitly justified my reasons for not considering Genesis 15:6 a prophecy. Let me go through some of them again;

 

1) James introduces the relevant topic by appealing to a faith being fulfilled by a pattern of behaviour (James 2:14-20), not a specific action. To interpret Gen 15:6 as a prophecy fulfilled in Gen 22 would mean the opposite - that faith is only fulfilled through a specific action (i.e. as Abram’s faith was fulfilled, only by offering Isaac) - rather than by a general pattern of works. So straight away, your interpretation doesn’t agree with James. A more reasonable way to interpret James use of Gen 22 is to count it as an example of Abram’s pattern of behaviour reflecting his faith – which directly supports James’ actual point.

 

2) Genesis 15:5 contains a prophecy, but not Genesis 15:6. That is, there is no indicator of future prediction whatsoever in Genesis 15:6. Genesis 15:6 merely states Abram’s faith response to the prophecy in the previous verse. Too suggest otherwise is to read ideas into the verse that don’t actually exist (i.e. eisegesis). Gen 15:6 is simply too grammatically specific in its own context. There is nothing in the obvious reading of Gen 15:6 implying a prophecy of a future event, or in Gen 22 implying the fulfilment of any such prophecy.

 

3) Since the point of James’ is to demonstrate faith being “made perfect” by works, it is far more reasonable to interpret James as providing an example of Abram’s faith being “made perfect” by works – as opposed to a prophecy of Abram’s future and fulfilled justification; the latter interpretation being inconsistent with the point being made by James.

 

 

 

“And as I've shown, James' usage of Gen 15:6 as a prophecy is consistent with his argument, contrary to Paul's usage of Gen 15:6”

 

All you have done is repeat your argument that James should be interpreted as claiming prophecy because he used similar phraseology to other passages referring to prophecy. And you have now provided examples of such – which was unnecessary, since I have already conceded that general context can inform interpretation. What I reject, however, is any proposal that the general context should have more interpretation power than the specific, immediate context. I have provided arguments from the immediate contexts of both James and Genesis demonstrating that the ‘other usages’ argument is irrelevant in this instance.

 

 

 

“It doesn't make sense to you as a prophecy because you insist upon an interpretation which doesn't fit ”

 

It [Gen 15:6] doesn’t make sense to [me] as prophecy because there is no evidence in the text itself that it should be taken as prophecy. It doesn’t make sense to [me] as prophecy because to interpret it as prophecy is inconsistent with the point James is articulating. It doesn’t make sense to [me] as prophecy because it would mean that faith requires a single, specific, God-ordained action in order to produce justification.

 

As such, it doesn’t make sense to [me] as prophecy because there is a perfectly rational interpretation of James that reconciles Gen 15:6 to the most obvious reading of James, Genesis and the rest of scripture. It is my interpretation that does “fit” the context of the relevant passages.

 

 

 

“You might at least try to entertain the notion that Gen 15:6 is a prophecy, an idea which as you may note above is overwhelmingly support by the rest of the Bible, and come up with an interpretation consistent with that notion”

 

Are you reading my responses? I have explicitly done this – several times. Interpreting Gen 15:6 as prophecy would mean that faith requires a single, specific, God-ordained action in order to produce justification – which is not the gospel of Christ (or a gospel at all). Such an interpretation is unsustainable in the light of the relevant contexts of Genesis and James, as well as being inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

[bcbsr]

 

 is not the gospel of Christ (or a gospel at all). ... as well as being inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

 

Exactly, James utilizing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy proves to Martin Luther and myself that James is preaching a gospel of straw, inconsistent with the rest of scripture. As I have shown, such usage is in line with the context of James, supporting his claim that justification is by works and not by faith only. But he is misusing of Gen 15:6 as if it were a prophecy, which you yourself note is an irrational usage of Gen 15:6, but that's James in his desperation to grasp at a salvation by works soteriology historically advocated by Catholics and the like who use James as the under pinning of their doctrine.

Edited June 25, 2015 by bcbsr

[FresnoJoe]

James utilizing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy proves to Martin Luther and myself that James is preaching a gospel of straw, inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

 

?

 

Beloved, Who Are You And Who Is Martin Luther....

 

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Romans 9:20 (NIV)

 

~

 

Spot On Saul, Spot On~!

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

- James And Matthew On Joy In The Midst Of Trials

 

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; James 1:2

 

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:10-12

 

- James And Matthew With An Exhortation To Perfection

 

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 1:4

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

 

- James And Matthew On Asking For Good Gifts

 

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5

 

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7:7

 

- James And Matthew Warning Against Anger

 

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:20

 

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

 

- James And Matthew About Hearers And Doers Of The Word

 

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

 

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:24

 

- James And Matthew On Keeping The Whole Law

 

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

 

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

 

- James And Matthew On The Blessings Of Mercy

 

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. James 2:13

 

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

 

- James And Matthew On The Blessings Of Peacemakers

 

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James 3:18

 

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

 

James And Matthew On Worldly Friendship As Enmity Against God

 

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4

 

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24

 

- James And Matthew Teaching Against Judging Others

 

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

 

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? James 4:11-12

 

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

 

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-5

 

- James And Matthew Teach Moth And Rust Corrupt Riches

 

Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. James 5:2

 

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

 

- James And Matthew Show The Prophets Are Examples

 

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. James 5:10

 

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:12

 

- James And Matthew Warn Against Making Oaths

 

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. James 5:12

 

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Matthew 5:33-37

 

~

 

Beloved, Please Do Not Mock And Preach That Brother James

 

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:14-17

 

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:51 (NIV)

 

Wrote Anything Contrary

 

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:18-20

 

By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matthew 7:16 (NIV)

 

To God's

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:21-23

 

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." Genesis 22:12 (NIV)

 

Word

 

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:24-26

 

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6 (NIV)

 

Love, Joe

 

~

 

PS: Using Man's Thoughts

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:12

 

Will Never Lead A Fellow

 

How can a young person stay on the path of purity? By living according to your word. Psalms 119:9 (NIV)

 

To God's Truth

 

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:5-8

[Tristen]

 

 

 is not the gospel of Christ (or a gospel at all). ... as well as being inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

 

Exactly, James utilizing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy proves to Martin Luther and myself that James is preaching a gospel of straw, inconsistent with the rest of scripture. As I have shown, such usage is in line with the context of James, supporting his claim that justification is by works and not by faith only. But he is misusing of Gen 15:6 as if it were a prophecy, which you yourself note is an irrational usage of Gen 15:6, but that's James in his desperation to grasp at a salvation by works soteriology historically advocated by Catholics and the like who use James as the under pinning of their doctrine.

 

 

Hey Bcbsr,

 

The context of our discussion is a debate over the intended meaning of James 2:21-23. Either James 2:21-23 means;

A) Gen 22 is the fulfillment of a prophecy stated in Gen 15:6, or it means

B) Gen 22 demonstrates the fulfillment of Abram’s faith, as mentioned in Gen 15:6.

 

I have provided several refutations of interpretation A (your preferred interpretation). In your above statement, you have simply assumed your interpretation to be correct; without the slightest attempt to address any of my arguments.

 

 

Given your provided examples, I have a further argument against your ‘other usage’ position.

 

4) James’ phraseology does not follow the pattern of other usages of “scripture being fulfilled” and is therefore not comparable to the context of James 2:21-23. The provided examples tend to follow the pattern;

- Describe a contemporary event (usually regarding Jesus), then quote the scripture demonstrating the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy.

That is not how James uses the phrase. James does not use this pattern.

 

In order for the context to be comparable to ‘other usages’ in scripture, Genesis 22 would have to explicitly state that Abram’s offering of Isaac ‘fulfilled the scripture that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”’ But no such statement appears in Genesis 22. Therefore the ‘other usage’ argument cannot be legitimately applied with any interpretative power to James 2:21-23. The contexts are structurally different.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Tristen

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

 is not the gospel of Christ (or a gospel at all). ... as well as being inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

 

Exactly, James utilizing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy proves to Martin Luther and myself that James is preaching a gospel of straw, inconsistent with the rest of scripture. As I have shown, such usage is in line with the context of James, supporting his claim that justification is by works and not by faith only. But he is misusing of Gen 15:6 as if it were a prophecy, which you yourself note is an irrational usage of Gen 15:6, but that's James in his desperation to grasp at a salvation by works soteriology historically advocated by Catholics and the like who use James as the under pinning of their doctrine.

 

 

Hey Bcbsr,

 

The context of our discussion is a debate over the intended meaning of James 2:21-23. Either James 2:21-23 means;

A) Gen 22 is the fulfillment of a prophecy stated in Gen 15:6, or it means

B) Gen 22 demonstrates the fulfillment of Abram’s faith, as mentioned in Gen 15:6.

 

I have provided several refutations of interpretation A (your preferred interpretation). In your above statement, you have simply assumed your interpretation to be correct; without the slightest attempt to address any of my arguments.

 

 

Given your provided examples, I have a further argument against your ‘other usage’ position.

 

4) James’ phraseology does not follow the pattern of other usages of “scripture being fulfilled” and is therefore not comparable to the context of James 2:21-23. The provided examples tend to follow the pattern;

- Describe a contemporary event (usually regarding Jesus), then quote the scripture demonstrating the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy.

That is not how James uses the phrase. James does not use this pattern.

 

In order for the context to be comparable to ‘other usages’ in scripture, Genesis 22 would have to explicitly state that Abram’s offering of Isaac ‘fulfilled the scripture that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”’ But no such statement appears in Genesis 22. Therefore the ‘other usage’ argument cannot be legitimately applied with any interpretative power to James 2:21-23. The contexts are structurally different.

 

 

James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone. Prior to Gen 22 James is saying that Abraham had faith alone, but was not reckon righteous until he did a work of faith. Gen 15:6 as James uses it is comparable to every other example of "scripture being fulfilled" in that it is referring to an event (Abraham being reckoned righteous) as something in the future from the verse itself. Yes, James is wrong. But James is in fact proposing Gen 15:6 is a prophecy. You're arguments to the contrary simply don't hold. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually the use of "justified"  in James two defies "reckoned righteous."   That is not how he is using the term.   Word usage in context always trumps the lexical definition of a word.  James and Paul using "justified"  in two completely different ways.    You are assuming that justified in James two is the same as Paul uses it in say, Romans 3 and you are mistaken about that.  

[bcbsr]

Actually the use of "justified"  in James two defies "reckoned righteous."   That is not how he is using the term.   Word usage in context always trumps the lexical definition of a word.  James and Paul using "justified"  in two completely different ways.    You are assuming that justified in James two is the same as Paul uses it in say, Romans 3 and you are mistaken about that.  

 

Thanks for sharing your assumption.

[Tristen]

 

 

 

 

 is not the gospel of Christ (or a gospel at all). ... as well as being inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

 

Exactly, James utilizing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy proves to Martin Luther and myself that James is preaching a gospel of straw, inconsistent with the rest of scripture. As I have shown, such usage is in line with the context of James, supporting his claim that justification is by works and not by faith only. But he is misusing of Gen 15:6 as if it were a prophecy, which you yourself note is an irrational usage of Gen 15:6, but that's James in his desperation to grasp at a salvation by works soteriology historically advocated by Catholics and the like who use James as the under pinning of their doctrine.

 

 

Hey Bcbsr,

 

The context of our discussion is a debate over the intended meaning of James 2:21-23. Either James 2:21-23 means;

A) Gen 22 is the fulfillment of a prophecy stated in Gen 15:6, or it means

B) Gen 22 demonstrates the fulfillment of Abram’s faith, as mentioned in Gen 15:6.

 

I have provided several refutations of interpretation A (your preferred interpretation). In your above statement, you have simply assumed your interpretation to be correct; without the slightest attempt to address any of my arguments.

 

 

Given your provided examples, I have a further argument against your ‘other usage’ position.

 

4) James’ phraseology does not follow the pattern of other usages of “scripture being fulfilled” and is therefore not comparable to the context of James 2:21-23. The provided examples tend to follow the pattern;

- Describe a contemporary event (usually regarding Jesus), then quote the scripture demonstrating the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy.

That is not how James uses the phrase. James does not use this pattern.

 

In order for the context to be comparable to ‘other usages’ in scripture, Genesis 22 would have to explicitly state that Abram’s offering of Isaac ‘fulfilled the scripture that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”’ But no such statement appears in Genesis 22. Therefore the ‘other usage’ argument cannot be legitimately applied with any interpretative power to James 2:21-23. The contexts are structurally different.

 

 

James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone. Prior to Gen 22 James is saying that Abraham had faith alone, but was not reckon righteous until he did a work of faith. Gen 15:6 as James uses it is comparable to every other example of "scripture being fulfilled" in that it is referring to an event (Abraham being reckoned righteous) as something in the future from the verse itself. Yes, James is wrong. But James is in fact proposing Gen 15:6 is a prophecy. You're arguments to the contrary simply don't hold. 

 

 

You said, “James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone”

 

So when James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. This is a departure from your previous arguments. The implication of this concession is that we can accept a broader connotation of “fulfilled”, than that used by other scriptures which are referring to prophecies.

 

 

 

“Prior to Gen 22 James is saying that Abraham had faith alone, but was not reckon righteous until he did a work of faith”

 

Is that what "James is saying" – because he doesn’t actually say that? James doesn’t actually make any claim about Abram’s actions between Gen 15 and Gen 22. He simply uses Gen 22 as an example of Abram expressing his faith (from Gen 15:6). There is no reason to assume otherwise – apart from an ancillary motivation to discredit James.

 

 

 

“Gen 15:6 as James uses it is comparable to every other example of "scripture being fulfilled" in that it is referring to an event (Abraham being reckoned righteous) as something in the future from the verse itself”

 

I have refuted this with several arguments. Here you repeat your claim, but until you address my actual arguments, I have nothing more to consider.

 

 

 

“But James is in fact proposing Gen 15:6 is a prophecy”

 

In addition to my previous answer, you are not being consistent with your opening claim (of this post) – that when James uses “fulfilled”, he is referring to the fulfillment of Abram’s justification, not the fulfillment of a prophecy.

 

 

 

“You're arguments to the contrary simply don't hold”

 

Well, that’s a nice story (albeit an Unsupported Assertion). But until you provide an argument that specifically addresses my position, I have no obligation to take such a claim seriously. You've provided me nothing to consider, defend or rebut.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Tristen

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

 

You said, “James is saying that it is the reckoning of his righteousness which is fulfilled in Gen 22, which is consistent with the text that a person is justified (reckoned righteous) by his works and not by faith alone”

 

So when James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. This is a departure from your previous arguments. The implication of this concession is that we can accept a broader connotation of “fulfilled”, than that used by other scriptures which are referring to prophecies.

 

 

 

No. You say James uses “fulfilled”, he is not referring to a prophecy, but Abram’s justification. I say that James is saying Gen 15:6 is a prophecy predicting Abraham's justification, predicted in Gen 15 and fulfilled in Gen 22. That speaks to all your objections. As James uses Gen 15:6 as a prophecy, all your other objections are non sequitur. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by bcbsr