enoob57 Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) God is in heaven. God looks down on us from heaven If there is no sadness in heaven, then can the actions of men make God sad? If they can make God sad, then there is sadness in heaven. If they cannot make God sad, then why can't God also make it so those in heaven now can also look down on us from heaven and not be sad?OK first off God is everywhere, not just in Heaven. And Yes when He see's the all the turmoil on this earth I believe it makes Him sad. It especially breaks His Heart when He sees us His own, making choices and doing things that do not line up with His Word. But as for people seeing from Heaven what is happening here, all the horrible things that are happening, there is no truth to that at all. The Bible says He will wipe away every tear we have. It would not be Heaven if we saw all of that from Heaven. It would be a place of sadness, tears, fears, unrest all the things we deal with down here from day to day. So please don't tell people that those in Heaven are going to have the sadness and grief that we do here because it is just not true. I look forward to the day when all my tears are gone, To the day when I never have to say good-by again or face sickness . Read Revelation Chapters 21 and 22. It will give you a picture of what Heaven is and I believe it 's going to be a million times better then what is described in the Bible, because we in our finite mind cannot begin to comprehend just how beautiful it really is. The Bible says eyes have not seen nor ears has heard what God has planned for those who love Him.right there with ya Sis!!! Edited August 9, 2015 by enoob57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desi2007 Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,220 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 219 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/18/1966 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I tend to think people in heaven can't see us down here on earth. Maybe its when they think about us or send us butterflies in memory to let us know they are thinking of us could be true. Because if you think about heaven and sometimes when we look up in the sky its like some clouds can resemble a person's face or an animal, why is that? I think its almost like a glimpse of someone a reflection from heaven. For example. About 3 months ago I was looking up in the sky and seen a face...I thought whoa who is that? nobody I knew...he had a beard. No one has ever seen God so I ruled that out. I honestly just think it was a mere reflection of someone up in heaven and I happen to look up at that right time. I even took a picture of it and still have it. There are a lot of things in this world we just don't know. But I like questions like this cause we read other people's comments on it to shed light on something you might view the same or maybe nothing the same. Anyways, just my two cents on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 We do not form doctrine on the basis of what early Christians thought. They are not infallible, but the Bible is, and the Bible is the final word on the matter. There is nothing in the Bible that says anyone in heaven can see us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 God is in heaven. God looks down on us from heaven If there is no sadness in heaven, then can the actions of men make God sad? If they can make God sad, then there is sadness in heaven. If they cannot make God sad, then why can't God also make it so those in heaven now can also look down on us from heaven and not be sad? OK first off God is everywhere, not just in Heaven. And Yes when He see's the all the turmoil on this earth I believe it makes Him sad. It especially breaks His Heart when He sees us His own, making choices and doing things that do not line up with His Word. But as for people seeing from Heaven what is happening here, all the horrible things that are happening, there is no truth to that at all. The Bible says He will wipe away every tear we have. It would not be Heaven if we saw all of that from Heaven. It would be a place of sadness, tears, fears, unrest all the things we deal with down here from day to day. So please don't tell people that those in Heaven are going to have the sadness and grief that we do here because it is just not true. I look forward to the day when all my tears are gone, To the day when I never have to say good-by again or face sickness . Read Revelation Chapters 21 and 22. It will give you a picture of what Heaven is and I believe it 's going to be a million times better then what is described in the Bible, because we in our finite mind cannot begin to comprehend just how beautiful it really is. The Bible says eyes have not seen nor ears has heard what God has planned for those who love Him. Ok, let's simply look at this from a logical perspective. Logically it would follow that if God is sad then there is sadness in heaven. Logically it would follow that if there is sadness in heaven then those in heaven would be aware of it. That's simply a logical conclusion. I think our concepts of sadness and happiness fall far short of the reality in heaven. I think when we try to put heaven into human terms we find ourselves very limited. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the rich man is aware of not only his plight, but that of those still alive on earth and begs to be allowed to tell them of their fate if they don't repent. Paul tells us that there is a great cloud of witnesses that surround us and he places this cloud of witnesses in the setting of Roman or Greek races that would take place in a coliseum which would, by obvious implication, also involve great numbers of people watching the progress of the individual racers and cheering them on. This great cloud of witnesses could not surround us or cheer us on if they were not aware of what is happening with us. After describing this cloud of witnesses in chapter 11 he says: Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, When he says "seeing we also "are"" the word "are" is and is in the present tense, active voice, participle mood. This means it is something actively happening in the present moment. Present Tense: The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. Active Voice: The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action. what is doing the encompassing? The great cloud of witnesses. They are actively engaged in this. Participle Mood: The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun." Let *us* also therefore, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, laying aside every weight, and sin which so easily entangles us, run with endurance the race that lies before us, Therefore, we also having so great a cloud of witnesses set around us, every weight having put off, and the closely besetting sin, through endurance may we run the contest that is set before us, "compassed about" "perikeimai" "περίκειμαι" περίκειμαι períkeimai, per-ik'-i-mahee; from G4012 and G2749; to lie all around, i.e. inclose, encircle, hamper (literally or figuratively):—be bound (compassed) with, hang about. to lie around to be compassed with, have round one There would be no point to Paul so clearly stating that this great cloud of witnesses now, in this present moment, surround us, observe us, if it were not so. I trust God that he knows how to protect the happiness of those in heaven while they observe and intercede for us. They behold His glory. Everything on earth pales in comparison. Christ intercedes for us in heaven. Romans 8:34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. We share in the ministry of intercession here on earth. If Jesus is interceding for us in heaven, why would we stop sharing in this ministry of intercession simply because we are in heaven? Are we not to be imitators of Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 We do not form doctrine on the basis of what early Christians thought. They are not infallible, but the Bible is, and the Bible is the final word on the matter. There is nothing in the Bible that says anyone in heaven can see us. If your doctrine is different from that of the early christians, then what do you have? Infalliblity is not something we ascribe to the bible. The bible in inerrant. The bible cannot be infallible for the concept of infallibility pertains to conscious beings. The bible is a book. It is not a being. Beings are either fallible or infallible. What we read, as living, conscious beings, in the inerrant bible, is subject to our frailties, our errors, our limited and poor understanding. What we understand from reading the inerrant scripture is subject to misunderstanding in our fallible human nature. We are not infallible. And you have admitted such before. And so your interpretation of scripture is fallible by definiton and necessity, for if it were not, you would be an infallible being which you have denied being. Basically following the logic in your various statements to date, what you are saying is that the early christians were not really christian because they taught differently than you taught. I would like someone to explain how we get christianity from the early christians - but they were not really christians? I would like someone to explain how the "all truth" was promised to the Apostles so the full revelation of truth to the Church was complete with the Apostles if that promise was kept, yet somehow that "all truth" needed to wait almost 2000 years for Darby to reveal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Hebrews 12:1 does not say that we are being observed by a great cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1 is a continuation of the line of thought started in chapter 11 where the writer of Hebrews lists off numerous OT saints who were people of faith and who "ran the race" ahead of us. The "cloud of witnesses" is an expression meaning that we have a large number of number of past saints who stand as "witnesses" to the truth that the writer is saying . They are not observing us. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that people in heaven are even aware of what is happening with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 Hebrews 12:1 does not say that we are being observed by a great cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1 is a continuation of the line of thought started in chapter 11 where the writer of Hebrews lists off numerous OT saints who were people of faith and who "ran the race" ahead of us. The "cloud of witnesses" is an expression meaning that we have a large number of number of past saints who stand as "witnesses" to the truth that the writer is saying . They are not observing us. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that people in heaven are even aware of what is happening with us. You are now denying the clear testimony of scripture which I laid out above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 No, you're wrong littleflower (as always). We (biblical Christians) understand the Bible to be inerrant, infallible and immutable. Inerrant refers to the Bible's recorded facts. If the Bible says it happened, it happened. Infallibility refers to the Bible's correctness on doctrinal matter. Immutability means the Bible is unchanging. Those are core doctrines regarding Scripture. The Bible is infallible even if our understanding of it is not. Furthermore, it is not true that infallibility cannot be applied to the Bible simply because is a book. The Bible was inerrantly and infallibly inspired and transmitted to the writers. The Bible possesses both of those characteristics. The early Christians are not a good source for doctrine. Doctrine is derived from Scripture and Scripture alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 No littleflower, I am not denying the testimony of Scripture. I am upholding what that verse says, I am rejecting and debunking your sloppy exegesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 Hebrews 12:1 does not say that we are being observed by a great cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1 is a continuation of the line of thought started in chapter 11 where the writer of Hebrews lists off numerous OT saints who were people of faith and who "ran the race" ahead of us. The "cloud of witnesses" is an expression meaning that we have a large number of number of past saints who stand as "witnesses" to the truth that the writer is saying . They are not observing us. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that people in heaven are even aware of what is happening with us. You are now denying the clear testimony of scripture which I laid out above. No littleflower, I am not denying the testimony of Scripture. I am upholding what that verse says, I am rejecting and debunking your sloppy exegesis. Angels are aware of the prayers of the living: Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of thesaints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. The four beasts and the twenty elders are aware of the prayers of the living Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four andtwenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers ofsaints. The angle is aware of the prayers of the living. Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Those in heaven offer up our prayers to God. What you're saying here we have a large number of number of past saints who stand as "witnesses" to the truth is that they stand as witness to the truth. You are saying that the writer is speaking of their witness rather than the people from chapter 11 themselves. The writer of Hebrews in 12:1 was not talking about the "witness" of those in chapter 11 He was talking about the "witnessES." Witnesses are people and that they are people here is made very clear by the underlying Greek and the context. What I see you doing is mental gymnastics trying to make something the writer said plainly into something else in order to defend your pov. But when we look at the underlying Greek as I did above, and the context, including historically in regards to races of the time with large numbers of spectators, the imagery the writer is creating is very clear. And the writer of Hebrews continues with this theme of our relationship with those in heaven: Hebrews 12 22But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel. These verses are all about heaven and about us having come to those in heaven - Not just Jesus, not just God, but innumerable company of angels, the general assembly and church of the firstborn - the church in heaven, to the SPIRITS of the just men made perfect. This is a list of all those we are come unto when we were made a part of the family of God - ALL those in heaven, not just God. Those who have died and gone to heaven are spirits awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. And the writer says that just as we have come to God, just as we have come to Jesus, so also we come to the angels and the SPIRITS of men in heaven - the Saints. "you are come" Is in the 2nd Perfect Tense, the Active Voice, the Indicative Mood. this means 2nd Perfect Tense: The second perfect is identical in meaning to that of the normal or "first" perfect tense Perfect Tense: The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. This tells we came to all who are in heaven, once and for all, never needing to be repeated. It never needs to be repeated because this is where we are. If we are not there till we are in heaven ourselves, then this needs to be repeated for the writer tells us clearly this is where we have already come to. This is where we are. We are surrounded by those in heaven. Active Voice: The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action. We are the doer of this action. Our response to Jesus brings us here. We engage in this action every time we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, just as the early christians did. We cannot remove ourselves from this Great Cloud of Witnesses. Indicative Mood: The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. Since the tense is Perfect, it has already happened, once and for all, this is where we are and this is a simple statement of fact. We have come to the SPIRITS of just men made perfect in heaven. The Great Cloud of Witnesses that surround us which includes those from chapter 11. The scriptures are actually quite plain here. Just because the scriptures actually say something other than you want them to say, it is not a reason to change the ordinary sense of the words of scripture to fit your preconceived ideas and bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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