Serving Posted July 9, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Hi Ezra .. Shiloh : The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church. Ezra : Already addressed. Heavenly "bricks and mortar" (gold, precious stones, etc.) cannot possibly be the Bride. That is absurd in the extreme. Ezra, brother, have you read God mentioning the Jews that were building a wall for themselves using "untempered mortar?" brother. Or the breach within that wall? Or how God is going to destroy that wall? Do you think that God has got something against walls Ezra? No .. rather, God disapproved of their doctrine they were surrounding themselves with of which doctrine God likened to a wall. Did you understand that the "untempered mortar" those Jews were daubing the wall with was reference to a doctrine in variance to the truth? That is, a doctrine presuming it's own authority with it's own foundations whose authority & foundations are not of God but are of men's traditions? Meaning, there was not truth in that mortar of which the Jews were daubing their wall (doctrine) with !! Since God used the wall & the mortar analogy when He was actually speaking about the truth in relation to contrived doctrines .. then we do find that indeed there is scriptural evidence to back what is being expressed concerning the bride being the city .. & .. that .. in no way is it "absurd in the extreme" nor is it a stretch to understand that bricks & mortar is not speaking of inanimate material objects after all, but is instead speaking of the Spiritual .. a spiritual meaning !! Shiloh : The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem. Ezra : No. It is not. Read Hebrews 12:22-24. The Church is one of the OCCUPANTS of the New Jerusalem, along with God and Christ. Brother, OCCUPANTS of a city are not themselves the city, but are OCCUPANTS like you just said !!!! City v's occupants of said City !! TWO different entities .. See? So where is Shiloh's error when said "mentioned separately?" I believe you have misunderstood Shiloh's use of "separately" in the context used !!. Shiloh : The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him Ezra : The Church was never meant to return to earth. It is presently "seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus" and will remain in the New Jerusalem eternally while it reigns with Christ. On the other hand, redeemed and restored Israel will definitely be on earth, possessing the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and all twelve tribes will have their eternal inheritance ON EARTH. Study Ezekiel. Firstly,the church is not presently seated in the heavenlies .. not literally .. for an example, if there were a pre trib rapture event, whose "event" even by your admittance has not yet occurred .. who is this church currently & literally seated in the heavenlies right now if you could please confirm? Since the church has not been "raptured" yet?? And what of the church that is currently still in the grave brother .. those that get resurrected at the 2nd coming as declared in revelations & elsewhere .. so "they" can't be in the heavenlies yet either !! So WHO is this church currently in the heavenlies since neither the past saints (still in the grave) & the "raptured" are not yet caught up?? Secondly, and by your logic, if the Israelites are to have their ETERNAL inheritance ON EARTH .. aren't you are then denying them access to a heavenly inheritance (by your understanding) and thus are making TWO separate families instead of ONE family? (in context to your explanation that is .. If I have misunderstood you .. apologies & please correct me) Thirdly .. By the church already returned to earth with Christ reigning, I take it Shiloh meant "returned" during the millennium right? Shiloh : prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem Ezra : New Jerusalem descends from Heaven but is never shown to rest on earth, because it is essentially a heavenly city which will give light to the earth. Read Revelation. New Jerusalem therefore hovers over the earth as a magnificent cubic city. Ezra .. to descend is to "come down" .. how do you say it hovers over the earth? God not only gave the measurements of that city, he also described whose borders this kingdom would reach too .. does Egypt hover in the air now too?? for she will share the border (besides the other nations mentioned) of the kingdom too !! All those nations sharing that border by your reckoning must likewise be hovering in the air too then, otherwise, how do they share the borders? Shiloh : which is clearly a city not a group of people. Ezra : What is the purpose of any city other than to accommodate a group of people? Just because it is personified should not lead to confusion about the purpose of a city. God does not have union and communion with inanimate materials but with souls and spirits. Ezra, I don't believe Shiloh erred one bit .. God does indeed use the metaphor of mortar & walls to describe doctrines & truth .. in light of the wall & mortar example therefore, we do indeed find scriptural support to the stated topic (city = bride) in the scriptures after all .. regardless of the accusation of being "absurd in the extreme". I would ask you to please search it out & test it to the best of your abilities before dismissing it so readily. God bless. Edited July 9, 2015 by Serving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Sister, Since you like to dabble in mysticism, there is nothing more to discuss. I could take each of your statements above and show from Scripture that you are coming up with your own ideas. Hello Ezra Let's take one over the top statement of yours: "She gives birth to her children at the resurrection". According to this: 1. The New Jerusalem has a mystical womb. 2. Christians are in this mystical womb at present. 3. At the resurrection of the saints they will come out of this marvellous mystical womb. Where in the world did you get such a fanciful notion, and which Scriptures do you have to support these fantasies? According to how you handle the Word, anything can be made to become anything else, and each one can come up with their own fancies. The Bible then becomes the Arabian Nights. 1. Zion is like a woman in travail. She has to go through much pain before her children can be born (tribulation). John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. When the resurrection comes, it will be all worth it. Her children that she converted will be born. We will be changed Ezra, changed to spirit at the resurrection. (NOTE: NOT A REAL WOMAN GIVING BIRTH, BUT A REAL KINGDOM THAT PRODUCES CHILDREN) 2. Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Is there something in her womb here? 3. Psalms 87:5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. I already pointed out that the city is simply a personification of the occupants, but you refuse to accept that. So quoting Rev 21:9,10 only proves that you do not wish to rightly divide the Word of Truth, but go off on mystical tangents. All the best to you, but beware. This type of speculation simply leads to false doctrine. Are we not supposed to use "scripture" to divide the Word of Truth? You stated "it is absurb that the city is the bride?" Doesn't Rev 21:9-10 answer that statement of yours? The angel says, Come, I will show you the bride? then he shows him "that great city, the holy Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. Isn't that the bride he just said that he will show him? That city? Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, What am I missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted July 9, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2015 The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride. Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the Church should have. The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church. JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number. Israel the bride JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION: Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar? LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest. REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL: Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says. ISAIAH 27 {12} And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM. In this scripture from Isaiah you see the “last trumpet” being blown. The gathering of His people. Are they goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim? Nope. There headin for the holy mountain, Zion, the new Jerusalem for the 1000yr period of rest ZECHARIAH 8 [1] Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted July 10, 2015 The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride. Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the Church should have. The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church. The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem. The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem which is clearly a city not a group of people. Hi shiloh357, While you know that I agree with you that the Body of Christ is not the bride. However I would encourage you to look more carefully into your understanding of where the Body of Christ will be in the millennium & eternally. Have you carefully read - `And all these (OT people looking for the city whose builder & Maker is God), obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided SOMETHING BETTER FOR US, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb.11: 39 & 40) Perfected, but with a different inheritance. obviously that is a big topic with many more scriptures to look in to. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Am I making any sense? No you are not. We are not the bride. The bride is that city that comes down. We are part of that building now, but not the bride. We are not holy Jerusalem. She existed before us. How can she turn into us and become us? As I already pointed out, Christ does not marry "heavenly bricks and mortar" (gold, precious stones, etc) therefore it is impossible -- indeed absurd -- that the city is the Bride. But the city in indeed THE ETERNAL HOME OF THE BRIDE (and therefore seen as a personification of the Bride). Please note carefully the difference between the city and its occupants (Heb 12:22-24): THE CITY But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, ITS OCCUPANTS and to (1) an innumerable company of angels, (2)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, (3) and to God the Judge of all, (4) and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (5) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hi Ezra, We agree on certain things, bro, but obviously there are details that need to be discussed. Anyway, I`m glad you are a pre-trib. believer also. And I`m sure I do annoy you at times but I don`t want to argue just discuss. Thus said, had you considered that if all those occupants as you said are in the city, the New Jerusalem, that when it comes down to above the earth(agree there) then that would leave the third heaven, the seat of power VACANT!!!!!! Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride. Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the Church should have. The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church. JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number. Israel the bride Wailing Wall Good post. Israel is the "daughter of Zion" Not Zion herself. There is a difference. Isaiah 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. Jeremiah 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. 2 Kings 19:21 This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. I was going to move on to this subject "the daughter of Zion" but had to explain Zion first. When God mentions "daughter of Zion" he is mainly referring to Israel. Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. And then we have the "daughters" of Zion. These are the Christian denominations that have come out of the "daughter of Zion", but not according to the truth. Isaiah 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Isaiah 3:17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. God bless. Please look into all the scriptures and you will see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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