Who or what is the two witnesses of god in the end times?

[SINNERSAVED]

34 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

verses for Ezra:

Matthew 24 describes a rapture of the elect (Christians) at the second coming:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

1 Thessalonians 4/5 describes the rapture occurring at the "coming of the Lord", at the "day of the Lord", a day of "destruction"

¹⁵ According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words.  Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

1 Corinthians 15 describes this same dead rising first, then the living Christians changed. This is a resurrection and occurs "when he comes". And the first resurrection occurs when.... at the second coming.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man,the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him............

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— ⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

The two witnesses of Rev 11 are raised JUST BEFORE the kingdoms of the world belong to Jesus. It's an obvious second coming event:

¹² Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. ¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. ¹⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. ¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

Over to you Ezra. Where are your supporting verses to show that the rapture occurs long before the two prophets? 

thank you ARGOSY, I posted the same in another thread, but  if no one looks and reads the scriptures,

and sticks to there ways told by man, and the churches teaching of the assumptions then it will not change,

 for the deception of those that follow the masses are not seeing and refuse to hear or to see,

God has dealt a lot with His people and we see why they were placed into slavery and then taught about religious rituals, and made up laws, and so , scripture states that man loves darkness rather then light , and that they can hide with there evil , but in the end it will all come out for what ever is done in secret will be exposed, and for those that have a heart for God, will be saved, and for those that have used Gods word and scripture, by use of intellect to keep others from entering in , like the Pharisees, then they will have there rewards also,

 for Yeshua said, if you follow me, and want to be true believers and followers , you must exceed the righteous of the Pharisees,

 so we see, that many defend the jews , Gods people , but not seeing how they have rejected and hated Him to have Him killed, and in to days society, do you not think they would Kill him again ?

 many are not thinking and seeing the truth , for they are wisked away by sudducing spirits, and satan himself has infiltrated the churches  so that Gods people will fall for the lies , just like in the Garden, it is all lies, and the truth no one wants to seek anymore,

 for a rebellious and perverted evil and wicked generation we live in today , where the right is wrong , and the wrong is right,

 we are so in the last days, and all must be ready , for our very own lives are going to be the last test of our faith ,

 if we love the world then the love of the father is not in them , scripture, after scripture, of warnings and things of today ,

blessings, and peace

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

Ezra, what you say has no scriptural support. Matthew 24 clearly describes a gathering of the elect at the second coming.

The "elect" in Matthew 24 are the elect believing Jewish remnant. Please note that for these Christ sends forth his angels to the four corners of the earth. That is not what happens at the Rapture, where He comes personally for the saints.

[ARGOSY]

10 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The "elect" in Matthew 24 are the elect believing Jewish remnant. Please note that for these Christ sends forth his angels to the four corners of the earth. That is not what happens at the Rapture, where He comes personally for the saints.

 

That's your opinion unless you have verses to support your restricting the elect in that particular verse to only Jews?  The general use of the term "elect" in the bible was for all believers, I hope you do have biblical support to change the word's meaning:

1 Peter 1   To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, ² who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

^{1 Peter 2: 9} But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. ¹⁰ Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

Peter writes this letter , not exclusively to Jews, but to a chosen people that were previously "not a people".  ie this is an open letter to all believers. Peter calls these believers the "elect".

[n2thelight]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

The "elect" in Matthew 24 are the elect believing Jewish remnant. Please note that for these Christ sends forth his angels to the four corners of the earth. That is not what happens at the Rapture, where He comes personally for the saints.

Why do you think the elect are just Jew's?That is not the truth.That comes from seperating the Church from Israel,when Israel has always been the Church....

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Peter writes this letter , not exclusively to Jews, but to a chosen people that were previously "not a people".  ie this is an open letter to all believers. Peter calls these believers the "elect".

The term "elect" can apply to both Christians and redeemed Jews at the Second Coming of Christ.  

But when the Olivet Discourse was given, Christ was addressing the future of Israel and the Jews, since the Church had not even come into existence.  Hence the gathering of the elect by the angels is a reference to the believing remnant of Israel.  

And that is why after His resurrection, His apostles asked Him this very pertinent question (Acts 1:6,7): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

The term "elect" can apply to both Christians and redeemed Jews at the Second Coming of Christ.

But when the Olivet Discourse was given, Christ was addressing the future of Israel and the Jews, since the Church had not even come into existence.  Hence the gathering of the elect by the angels is a reference to the believing remnant of Israel.

And that is why after His resurrection, His apostles asked Him this very pertinent question (Acts 1:6,7): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

 

The Church has always been Israel

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

The term "elect" can apply to both Christians and redeemed Jews at the Second Coming of Christ.  

But when the Olivet Discourse was given, Christ was addressing the future of Israel and the Jews, since the Church had not even come into existence.  Hence the gathering of the elect by the angels is a reference to the believing remnant of Israel.  

And that is why after His resurrection, His apostles asked Him this very pertinent question (Acts 1:6,7): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

 

Yes Jesus was talking to Jews, but much of what he said applied to all future believers.  You need more evidence if you want to restrict the use of the word elect to Jews only in Mathew 24. 

[SINNERSAVED]

6 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The Church has always been Israel

no israel was always Jacob . the assembly = church, the church is the spirit filled saints ,the called out ones , the true believers, first the jews then the gentiles, , Now we are one nation, one assembly , under one God, and soon to be all children of God, and members of the new Kingdom.

 blessings and peace

[Ezra]

15 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The Church has always been Israel

Since the Church consists of both redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body (1 Cor 12:13), it is not possible that the Church has always been Israel.  Neither will redeemed and restored Israel on earth (in the future) be the Church, which will be in the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

[n2thelight]

8 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

no israel was always Jacob . the assembly = church, the church is the spirit filled saints ,the called out ones , the true believers, first the jews then the gentiles, , Now we are one nation, one assembly , under one God, and soon to be all children of God, and members of the new Kingdom.

 blessings and peace

Now we need to understand who Israel is....What were the promises made to Jacob?If one were to look,they would see the fulfillment in the Christian nations of today...

So again the Church and Israel,cannot be seperated...