ARGOSY Posted March 15, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Just now, n2thelight said: So all these(mass slaughtered people )will lay in the street for 3 days,rise and be called to heaven? Yes. Does that seem unlikely to you, if so why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2016 18 hours ago, ARGOSY said: Yes. Does that seem unlikely to you, if so why? Okay,had to think before I answered. I feel the two olive tree's are distinct,meaning they are two individuals.I see what you're saying on the Churches being the lampstand.So I see it as both. I see the Churches as the elect,and some will be killed for their stand against the antichrist.I can go deeper,but I'll just leave it at that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 16, 2016 1 hour ago, n2thelight said: Okay,had to think before I answered. I feel the two olive tree's are distinct,meaning they are two individuals.I see what you're saying on the Churches being the lampstand.So I see it as both. I see the Churches as the elect,and some will be killed for their stand against the antichrist.I can go deeper,but I'll just leave it at that... You say "I feel" and yet I gave NT and OT verses to show that the symbol of olive trees regularly represents nations. So I don't "feel", I know what an olive tree normally represents. So if one is looking for the most obvious interpretation , these two are two groups, two church groups in Jerusalem that represent two separate nations. I see nothing in Revelation 11 which requires two individuals. Even the timing of their "rapture" occurs at the 6th trumpet, just before the kingdoms of the world become Christ's. The same timing of the general rapture. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2016 1 hour ago, ARGOSY said: You say "I feel" and yet I gave NT and OT verses to show that the symbol of olive trees regularly represents nations. So I don't "feel", I know what an olive tree normally represents. So if one is looking for the most obvious interpretation , these two are two groups, two church groups in Jerusalem that represent two separate nations. I see nothing in Revelation 11 which requires two individuals. Even the timing of their "rapture" occurs at the 6th trumpet, just before the kingdoms of the world become Christ's. The same timing of the general rapture. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Can't agree with you...The two witnesses are two literal people whom the dragon will slay,whose bodies will lay in the street for three days....Don't believe in a rapture,so you can leave that part out..... I take it you believe in the false rapture,and for this reason,whatever you have to say is off..... Now Im trying to figure out,what's the meaning of your bolded verse and we can continue. Oh,when I said I feel,it's all about scripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, n2thelight said: Can't agree with you...The two witnesses are two literal people whom the dragon will slay,whose bodies will lay in the street for three days....Don't believe in a rapture,so you can leave that part out..... I take it you believe in the false rapture,and for this reason,whatever you have to say is off..... Now Im trying to figure out,what's the meaning of your bolded verse and we can continue. Oh,when I said I feel,it's all about scripture Okay , well I am interested in your scriptures. I don't believe in any false rapture I believe that we will be raptured at the second coming (post trib) as described in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4/5 and 1 Corinthians 15 From the bolded parts I was indicating that the ascent of these 2 witnesses occurs just before the kingdoms of this world become Christ's. (at the second coming) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2016 39 minutes ago, ARGOSY said: Okay , well I am interested in your scriptures. I don't believe in any false rapture I believe that we will be raptured at the second coming (post trib) as described in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4/5 and 1 Corinthians 15 From the bolded parts I was indicating that the ascent of these 2 witnesses occurs just before the kingdoms of this world become Christ's. (at the second coming) Cool,so when you say the two witnesses,you mean the Church,would this be correct?My apologies for the rapture comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 16, 2016 10 hours ago, n2thelight said: Cool,so when you say the two witnesses,you mean the Church,would this be correct?My apologies for the rapture comment. No worries about the rapture comment. Yes, it just so happens that the timing of the rapture of the two witnesses (church of Jerusalem) occurs at the same time as the timing of the rapture of the worldwide church. Both occur just before Christ starts his reign over the kingdoms of this world.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2016 35 minutes ago, ARGOSY said: Yes, it just so happens that the timing of the rapture of the two witnesses (church of Jerusalem) occurs at the same time as the timing of the rapture of the worldwide church. Both occur just before Christ starts his reign over the kingdoms of this world.. If what you suggest is true, there should be some indication in Scripture to establish this. Since there isn't, I would say this is pure conjecture. The Rapture occurs long before the two prophets come on the scene. And Christ's Kingdom on earth comes some time after the two witnesses go to Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 16, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ezra said: If what you suggest is true, there should be some indication in Scripture to establish this. Since there isn't, I would say this is pure conjecture. The Rapture occurs long before the two prophets come on the scene. And Christ's Kingdom on earth comes some time after the two witnesses go to Heaven. Ezra, what you say has no scriptural support. Matthew 24 clearly describes a gathering of the elect at the second coming. 1 Thess 4/5 associates the rapture with the second coming, a day of wrath, the day of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15 associates the rapture with the resurrection of our bodies , an event that occurs at the second coming. And so EVERY time a rapture is described it is associated with the second coming. And Rev 11 describes the ascent of the 2 witnesses as occurring just prior to the kingdoms of this world becoming Christ's at the 7th trumpet. Also a second coming event. So I have quoted 4 different chapters in the bible to support my position. So as to keep this post short, I will put supporting verses in the next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 16, 2016 verses for Ezra: Matthew 24 describes a rapture of the elect (Christians) at the second coming: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1 Thessalonians 4/5 describes the rapture occurring at the "coming of the Lord", at the "day of the Lord", a day of "destruction" 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 1 Corinthians 15 describes this same dead rising first, then the living Christians changed. This is a resurrection and occurs "when he comes". And the first resurrection occurs when.... at the second coming. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man,the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him............ We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. The two witnesses of Rev 11 are raised JUST BEFORE the kingdoms of the world belong to Jesus. It's an obvious second coming event: 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” Over to you Ezra. Where are your supporting verses to show that the rapture occurs long before the two prophets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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