The term " Born Again Christian " is unbiblical

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually the NT tells us that Abraham's faith in God was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness.   Salvation, even in the OT, was by grace through faith.  They didn't have all of the light we have, but they were saved the same way we are and Paul makes that point in Romans 4:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
(Rom 4:20-25)

God imputes His righteousness to us on the basis of our faith just like He did with Abraham, and that would have been true for those in the OT who put their faith in God. 

The notion that they had to believe on Jesus the same way do, is simply not true.  They walked in the light they had and God counted their faith as righteousness.

I have to revisit my post, and try again. 

Abraham grew up in a family who had knowledge and believed in the Lord God the Creator. 

Noah had faith in the Lord God the Creator, and many of his descendants, 

Lot and many others, those who build the Tower of Babel were looking to find the Creator, the same way in our modern time, some are looking to find God in the space, they fly in the spaceship , what do they expect to see.

There is something similar in those two examples, they did not look down for God, or for an earthly God, but they were looking for him in the ascending mode. They were looking for the God of Heaven, but they did not go to Heaven. You find God in your heart by faith in the Lamb of God. Jesus Christ. 

Many believe in the Creator , but only to Abraham the Lord credited his faith as righteousness, 

 Abraham believed in the Lord the Creator, all his life, but the Lord credited his righteousness to him when Abraham believed a very specific message from the Lord God the Creator to him. 

The same it is truth for us in our times, it is not by faith in God alone, that we claim to have the imputed righteousness of God, but believing in the very specific message given from God to us, to believe that Jesus is the Christ , that Jesus has the Life of God and through faith in Jesus Christ we have the life of God and the imputed righteousness of God, and we also are found or we found our selfs seeking to have our own righteousness. 

Abraham's specific message was the promise from God that he will give life to his productive parts so he can have children,

(together with the promise of the earthly inheritance ),(and that before the sircoumsission),

 when Abraham believed the Lord's promise to make his body alive , then the Lord God imputed righteousness to him.

Jesus is giving the testimony that it was revealed to Abraham the day of Christ, and Abraham die with this hope, that the Christ is the special Lamb of God who will shed the blood of the new covenant ,   not the special Son Isaac, but someone with the Life of God in him. 

We also see that God separated Abraham and his offsprings from the rest of the world , through the sircoumsission  and God also separated them from the rest of the world after they die, by giving Abraham what we got to know as the Bossom of Abraham. 

That's where Abraham and his offsprings were waiting for the comming of Christ. Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ die, this is the first place he descended to, to set Abraham and the ones in his Bossom free from that captivity. 

That's where Abraham meet Jesus Christ, and received what he did not have before the life of God by faith in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus die for all, and it makes sense that Jesus did not stopped there, but as the disciples teach he went and preached the Good news of the Gospel to ALL who had die before him.

When God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, he gave him the Heavens as his inheritance, and not only that, he also gave him authority in Heaven and earth, and he gave him the Throne. 

Jesus Christ had a place to take those who believed in him, because God made them co-heirs together with Jesus.

When Jesus was raised from the dead, he took out from there all who had believed in him, not only Abraham and those in his Bossom. 

They were all co-heirs of Heaven together with Jesus Christ. 

As the scriptures said , God gave you Moses to delivered you from Egypt , so also God will send someone else's to delivered you from the spiritual captivity, from death, the inheritance we received from Adam, and to David was revealed as we have the witness of Jesus,  that this honor was given to his Lord God, the Christ to be. The one with the Life of God, who will be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the World, the Judge of all, the one who has the keys of Hades and Death. 

Who opens and not one can close, who closes and no one can open. 

I never said that Abraham  did not die with the hope of the coming Christ, only that Jesus Christ had to die first and descent to Abraham and John the Baptist who die before him and went to the Bossom of Abraham where all the Saints were waiting for the comming of Jesus Christ to take them out from there, that's the mission Jesus gave to John the Baptist, when John's disciples went to him to plea for John, you have declare my coming here on earth, now go to the Bossom of Abraham before me and declare my coming there, the day of Jubilee is at hand. 

I tried to be more brief. 

And no one is born from above before Jesus die.

Jesus said where I go you can not come, and this is true the disciples and us will never descent to below, in the place of the dead, that's where Jesus was raised from.

Jesus said the dead will hear my voice and that what happened, and they will raise up first, that what happened ,the dead heard the Gospel first from Jesus Christ him self. 

"The dead will hear my voice and will be the first ones to hear the Gospel and received the eternal life by faith alone, hope no one hopes for them to do good works when they are out of the body. 

They were co-heirs of Heaven together with Jesus Christ, they same way we are , by faith in him as the Son of God, the one with the Life, hope that no one believes that when they believe in Jesus Christ that they still are in death,

Jesus has only Life, and that what he gives as a gift to anyone even if he has small or a little faith,  just like a mustard seed faith . This mountain will be removed, because it depends on the atonement of Jesus Christ. 

 

[thilipsis]

23 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I have to revisit my post, and try again. 

Abraham grew up in a family who had knowledge and believed in the Lord God the Creator. 

Abraham's family were idolaters:

Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods. (Joshua 24:2)

There is a reason Abram was separated from them.

Quote

Noah had faith in the Lord God the Creator, and many of his descendants, 

The New Testament mentions Noah several times, usually in connection with the conditions before the flood and some genealogical information (Matt. 24:37-30; Luke 3:36; Luke 17:26-27; 1Pet. 3:20). Specifically, Noah, 'became heir of the righteousness that is by faith':

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb. 11:7)

Noah was also a prophet, an Old Testament preacher of righteousness:

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. (2 Pet. 2:5)

The righteousness that is by faith did not begin with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it was revealed indicating it was always justification by grace through faith:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. (Rom. 3:19-22)

The Law makes everyone, 'guilty before God', and, 'by the Law is the knowledge of sin'. The two most important words in Romans marking the turning point both of redemptive history and the doctrinal foundation of the book, 'But now', something is, 'manifested', (Rom. 3:21):

Manifested (G5319 φανερόω phaneroō): to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way. (Outline of Biblical Usage)

What has been manifested, made 'visible or known', is the righteousness that is by faith. They waited for the appearance of Christ just as we wait for the return of Christ. It is all focused on the atonement of Christ and they looked forward to it just as we look back.

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Lot and many others, those who build the Tower of Babel were looking to find the Creator, the same way in our modern time, some are looking to find God in the space, they fly in the spaceship , what do they expect to see.

They were building the Tower of Babel, which was actually a city, so they wouldn't be scattered as God commanded and to make a name for themselves. If they were looking for God they could have called upon his name. They did go on to build another city after God destroyed that tower, they founded Babylon, the first pagan empire of antiquity. Certainly not the last and the seeds of that pagan enterprise is with us to this day, both secular and spiritual Babylon still tries to exalt itself to the heavens and God will bring them to the dust.

Quote

There is something similar in those two examples, they did not look down for God, or for an earthly God, but they were looking for him in the ascending mode. They were looking for the God of Heaven, but they did not go to Heaven. You find God in your heart by faith in the Lamb of God. Jesus Christ. 

Many believe in the Creator , but only to Abraham the Lord credited his faith as righteousness, 

 Abraham believed in the Lord the Creator, all his life, but the Lord credited his righteousness to him when Abraham believed a very specific message from the Lord God the Creator to him. 

The same it is truth for us in our times, it is not by faith in God alone, that we claim to have the imputed righteousness of God, but believing in the very specific message given from God to us, to believe that Jesus is the Christ , that Jesus has the Life of God and through faith in Jesus Christ we have the life of God and the imputed righteousness of God, and we also are found or we found our selfs seeking to have our own righteousness. 

Abraham's specific message was the promise from God that he will give life to his productive parts so he can have children,

(together with the promise of the earthly inheritance ),(and that before the sircoumsission),

 when Abraham believed the Lord's promise to make his body alive , then the Lord God imputed righteousness to him.

Jesus is giving the testimony that it was revealed to Abraham the day of Christ, and Abraham die with this hope, that the Christ is the special Lamb of God who will shed the blood of the new covenant ,   not the special Son Isaac, but someone with the Life of God in him. 

We also see that God separated Abraham and his offsprings from the rest of the world , through the sircoumsission  and God also separated them from the rest of the world after they die, by giving Abraham what we got to know as the Bossom of Abraham. 

That's where Abraham and his offsprings were waiting for the comming of Christ. Jesus Christ.

You had me until:

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When Jesus Christ die, this is the first place he descended to, to set Abraham and the ones in his Bossom free from that captivity.

We simply don't know that, 'Abraham's bosom' in the New Testament is heaven:

16:22 Abraham’s bosom. This same expression (found only here in Scripture) was used in the Talmud as a figure for heaven. The idea was that Lazarus was given a place of high honor, reclining next to Abraham at the heavenly banquet.

16:23 in Hades. The suggestion that a rich man would be excluded from heaven would have scandalized the Pharisees (see note on Matt. 19:24); especially galling was the idea that a beggar who ate scraps from his table was granted the place of honor next to Abraham. “Hades” was the Gr. term for the abode of the dead. In the LXX, it was used to translate the Heb. Sheol, which referred to the realm of the dead in general, without necessarily distinguishing between righteous or unrighteous souls. However, in NT usage, “Hades” always refers to the place of the wicked prior to final judgment in hell. (The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Luke 16, Grace to You)

This was not really known in the Old Testament and we have limited knowledge, but the New Testament represents a fuller revelation. The idea that everyone was somehow, 'captive', doesn't dovetail very well with Scripture.

Quote

That's where Abraham meet Jesus Christ, and received what he did not have before the life of God by faith in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus die for all, and it makes sense that Jesus did not stopped there, but as the disciples teach he went and preached the Good news of the Gospel to ALL who had die before him.

When God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, he gave him the Heavens as his inheritance, and not only that, he also gave him authority in Heaven and earth, and he gave him the Throne. 

Jesus Christ had a place to take those who believed in him, because God made them co-heirs together with Jesus.

When Jesus was raised from the dead, he took out from there all who had believed in him, not only Abraham and those in his Bossom. 

They were all co-heirs of Heaven together with Jesus Christ. 

As the scriptures said , God gave you Moses to delivered you from Egypt , so also God will send someone else's to delivered you from the spiritual captivity, from death, the inheritance we received from Adam, and to David was revealed as we have the witness of Jesus,  that this honor was given to his Lord God, the Christ to be. The one with the Life of God, who will be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the World, the Judge of all, the one who has the keys of Hades and Death. 

Who opens and not one can close, who closes and no one can open. 

I never said that Abraham  did not die with the hope of the coming Christ, only that Jesus Christ had to die first and descent to Abraham and John the Baptist who die before him and went to the Bossom of Abraham where all the Saints were waiting for the comming of Jesus Christ to take them out from there, that's the mission Jesus gave to John the Baptist, when John's disciples went to him to plea for John, you have declare my coming here on earth, now go to the Bossom of Abraham before me and declare my coming there, the day of Jubilee is at hand. 

I tried to be more brief. 

Most of that was fine, no real issues, then we are back to this

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And no one is born from above before Jesus die.

I'm not so sure, nor am I going to pontificate anything the Scriptures are silent about. We know the righteousness of God that is by faith was how salvation and redemption worked in the Old Testament and was revealed and fulfilled in the New Testament. Abraham was the first to start receiving revelation after the Flood, he was promised an inheritance and descendants but it included far more then lineal physical descendants. His children became the nation of Israel and the covenant of the Patriarchs and inevitably the Sinai Covenant were and are embodied in the New Testament promise of regeneration. The Law never made anyone righteous, righteousness is by grace through faith. Abraham heard the gospel:

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.”  (Gal. 3:8-9)

In the interim between the first promise of the gospel and the later fulfillment of the promise God, the sins previously committed were passed over by the forbearance of God:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. (Rom. 3:25)

The Old Testament saints were not waiting in some dark nether world waiting for the atonement of Christ. Judgment for sins was suspended based on the promise of the righteousness of God in Christ revealed in the person and work of Christ.

Quote

Jesus said where I go you can not come, and this is true the disciples and us will never descent to below, in the place of the dead, that's where Jesus was raised from.

Jesus said the dead will hear my voice and that what happened, and they will raise up first, that what happened ,the dead heard the Gospel first from Jesus Christ him self. 

"The dead will hear my voice and will be the first ones to hear the Gospel and received the eternal life by faith alone, hope no one hopes for them to do good works when they are out of the body. 

They were co-heirs of Heaven together with Jesus Christ, they same way we are , by faith in him as the Son of God, the one with the Life, hope that no one believes that when they believe in Jesus Christ that they still are in death,

Jesus has only Life, and that what he gives as a gift to anyone even if he has small or a little faith,  just like a mustard seed faith . This mountain will be removed, because it depends on the atonement of Jesus Christ. 

 

While the regeneration of Old Testament saints remains something of a mystery we know that they were justified by grace through faith. Further we know that being sanctified (set apart) was key to the Old Testament relationship with God through the covenants and promises. They were justified, they were sanctified and we know that God's righteousness and holiness do not change. We have a fuller revelation, that doesn't mean God's promise has every changed or how that worked out in the lives of the Old Testament believers.

Were they 'born again', I'm not entirely sure but the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit is the key to New Testament salvation. Let's not jump to any conclusions about what that looked like in antiquity.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 18, 2016 by thilipsis
transcription errors

[thilipsis]

44 minutes ago, Cletus said:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

² The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

³ Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

⁴ Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

⁵ Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

⁶ That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

⁷ Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again

Right so if that is true of New Testament believers what does that say about Old Testament believers? We have been through the Scriptures on this matter, you draw your own conclusions but righteousness was never a product of the Law, by observing the Law no one was ever justified. But that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about sanctification, because the Scriptures are clear that we are justified by faith just as Noah, Abraham and every single one of the Old Testament believers. There is no other way, what we are talking about is sanctification which is the sole responsibility of the Holy Spirit of promise.

Were they saved before Christ differently then we are after Christ, it's an interesting question, but it's more about revelation then it is about a change in process. Indeed you must be born again, that was necessary before the cross and after. Do we really know enough to say they were not born again in the same sense Jesus meant it when talking to Nicodemus? I don't think so. Opinions vary.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 18, 2016 by thilipsis

[OneLight]

16 minutes ago, Yowm said:

This thread has been answered multiple times over proving that the term 'born again' is biblical. How is it that it just goes on and on and on.

ROFL, I think if I were a mod, I would have locked it and thrown away the key many moons ago.

If those who have questions would take the time to read the thread, they may learn something.  Why lock it?  All someone would do is create another similar thread asking the same questions.  At least, if someone skimmed through this thread, their questions may of been answered.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, thilipsis said:

Right so if that is true of New Testament believers what does that say about Old Testament believers? We have been through the Scriptures on this matter, you draw your own conclusions but righteousness was never a product of the Law, by observing the Law no one was ever justified. But that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about sanctification, because the Scriptures are clear that we are justified by faith just as Noah, Abraham and every single one of the Old Testament believers. There is no other way, what we are talking about is sanctification which is the sole responsibility of the Holy Spirit of promise.

Were they saved before Christ differently then we are after Christ, it's an interesting question, but it's more about revelation then it is about a change in process. Indeed you must be born again, that was necessary before the cross and after. Do we really know enough to say they were not born again in the same sense Jesus meant it when talking to Nicodemus? I don't think so. Opinions vary.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I read your post vary carefully , and you have raised interesting issues, 

I hope that I can be some help, that's what I think, and along the way, I know and that's always happen, that I am going to think deferent one way or the other at the end, so I will get further involved and that's also for my own benefit. 

I have to index the issues, for many reasons. 

I think one of the main issue is what happened to people after they die, through out the times.

The first man to die it was ABLE , and this is the question we have, 

 What happened to ABLE after he died. 

I am not going to comment, I will wait for your reply. 

Peace 

YCF 

[thilipsis]

44 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I read your post vary carefully , and you have raised interesting issues, 

I hope that I can be some help, that's what I think, and along the way, I know and that's always happen, that I am going to think deferent one way or the other at the end, so I will get further involved and that's also for my own benefit. 

I have to index the issues, for many reasons. 

I think one of the main issue is what happened to people after they die, through out the times.

The first man to die it was ABLE , and this is the question we have, 

 What happened to ABLE after he died. 

I am not going to comment, I will wait for your reply. 

Peace 

YCF 

If Adam had trusted God, and not disobeyed, the righteousness of God would have still been by faith. There is no other way, the righteousness of God must come from God himself, it is always a free gift.

We actually dealt with two issues here, justification by grace through faith and sanctification. Now the question of the afterlife is coming up and whether or not it's different for Old Testament believers, then it is for us, and frankly, I don't think it is. Abel was righteous, he died because his brother was jealous so it looks like Abel was the first martyr.

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. (Heb. 11:4)

He is in heaven of course, waiting for the redemption of the purchase price (Eph. 1:13,14), just as all believers do in this life and the life to come. Until the resurrection. Maranatha

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 19, 2016 by thilipsis
formating

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

If Adam had trusted God, and not disobey the righteousness of God would have still been by faith. There is no other way, the righteousness of God must come from God himself, it is always a free gift.

 

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

We actually dealt with two issues here, justification by grace through faith and sanctification.

Did Abel need those two requirements . As a self righteous person. 

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

Now the question of the afterlife is coming up and whether or not it's different for Old Testament believers, then it is for us, and frankly, I don't think it is. Abel was righteous, he died because his brother was jealous so it looks like Abel was the first martyr.

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts.

 

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. (Heb. 11:4)

The righter of Hebrews is saying that Abel is still dead, and he still speaks, (by faith). ( That the dead speak) . And  is there anyone to listen to. 

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

He is in heaven of course,

So the first man to go to Heaven is Abel. 

Abel was a righteous man, and God gave his witness to that, 

If I get it right , Abel had no Sin. He was self righteous, and he must be Holy, or was he Holy? 

So the seed of the fallen man, if he dies as a righteous person, (Sinless), and as a result Holy, (I am not sure if that applies ), goes to Heaven . 

It seems in the position you have taken , this was the requirements for Abel to go to Heaven. 

And you suggest that the writer of Hebrews holds the same position or he has some how encouraged you in your belief, 

The Hebrews says that Abel is still dead. And he speaks. 

"Even though he is dead"

Does the writer of Hebrews believes that Abel when he died went to Heaven ?  

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

waiting for the redemption of the purchase price (Eph. 1:13,14),

 

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

just as all believers do

This is a very big statement,  

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

in this life and the life to come. Until the resurrection. Maranatha

Grace and peace,
Mark

God bless

[Ezra]

This thread was created back in August, 2015 and the title was a falsehood then, and it still is a falsehood. Without the New Birth, no one can see or enter the Kingdom of God. 

[thilipsis]

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Did Abel need those two requirements . As a self righteous person. 

There is no such thing, if Abel was righteous then why was he offering up a sacrifice?

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The righter of Hebrews is saying that Abel is still dead, and he still speaks, (by faith). ( That the dead speak) . And  is there anyone to listen to.

 God said Abel's blood cried out from the ground, I don't think we should take that too literally. Martyr didn't originally mean someone who suffers and dies for their faith, it's the normal Greek word for a witness. His death is part of his testimony, it's really that simple.

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

So the first man to go to Heaven is Abel. 

Abel was a righteous man, and God gave his witness to that, 

If I get it right , Abel had no Sin. He was self righteous, and he must be Holy, or was he Holy?

 No he was not self righteous, there is no such thing, how many times have we been over this? Abel inherited Adam's sin just as we all did. According to Paul:

Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).

 

Abel was a sinner just like everyone else, by faith he offered a better sacrifice. Cain knew what God required but for some reason offered an unacceptable sacrifice, when Abel's offering was accepted he was jealous. But there is no indication the Abel was sinless, I think you have a fundamental misconception about what sin is, it's not just offenses you commit, it is. But it's a lack of something God requires and that is called righteousness and it only come from God as a free gift.

 

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

So the seed of the fallen man, if he dies as a righteous person, (Sinless), and as a result Holy, (I am not sure if that applies ), goes to Heaven . 

It seems in the position you have taken , this was the requirements for Abel to go to Heaven.

That is not the position I've taken, I've argued justification by grace through faith throughout the thread. I would never make that argument, I'm an evangelical, we don't do that. 

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

And you suggest that the writer of Hebrews holds the same position or he has some how encouraged you in your belief, 

The Hebrews says that Abel is still dead. And he speaks. 

"Even though he is dead"

Does the writer of Hebrews believes that Abel when he died went to Heaven ? 

This is a very big statement,  

God bless

That's not just a big statement, it's a defensible position with regard to essential doctrine. It's called justification by grace through faith. It is the issue that sparked the Protestant Reformation and exactly what they decided at the Jerusalem Council. Paul discusses it at length in Galatians and in the book of Romans he does the most extensive exposition of the doctrine in the New Testament. You may need to think about it.

Grace and peace,
Mark 

[thilipsis]

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

This thread was created back in August, 2015 and the title was a falsehood then, and it still is a falsehood. Without the New Birth, no one can see or enter the Kingdom of God. 

I think that how Old Testament saints were sanctified was different somehow but perhaps only with regards to how much they actually knew. We sometimes take for granted that Jesus is the only one in the New Testament, or the Old Testament for that matter, that teaches anything about hell. One thing we do know for sure is that being 'born again' is a reference to the divine nature. No one can be saved without it, how that actually worked then might be hard to say but the need for it isn't in question.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 19, 2016 by thilipsis