Church Attendence

[thereselittleflower]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

[thereselittleflower]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

[thereselittleflower]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[missmuffet]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

[thereselittleflower]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

Can you turn your back on Jesus, deny Him, and if you do will that ticket still be good?

 

 

 

[missmuffet]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

Can you turn your back on Jesus, deny Him, and if you do will that ticket still be good?

 

 

 

Yes,it would.I might lose a lot of rewards but I would still go to heaven if I originally asked Him into my heart.But......if I originally did ask Him into my heart why would I turn my back on Him?Everyone has doubts occasionally.

[thereselittleflower]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

Can you turn your back on Jesus, deny Him, and if you do will that ticket still be good?

 

 

 

Yes,it would.I might lose a lot of rewards but I would still go to heaven if I originally asked Him into my heart.But......if I originally did ask Him into my heart why would I turn my back on Him?Everyone has doubts occasionally.

 

Even though the scriptures say

Matthew 10:33

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

 

?

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[missmuffet]

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

You can not put God in a box.God is anywhere you want to worship.

Bopeep,

Evidently you need to dig a little deeper into Christian worship.  That is not putting God in a box but being obedient to God according to His Word.  Unfortunately Christians are generally not taught properly about worship as revealed in Scripture, and the meaning of gathering or assembling together.  Had the KJV used the word "assembly" instead of "church" for ekklesia, that concept would have been more evident (as in Hebrews 10:25):

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

How can we exhort one another, if we are absent from the gathering of the saints?

 

 

 

 

 

Salvation is found in Christ.No amount of Church attendance will earn eternity in heaven.It should be a person choice if someone wants to attend a Worship service in a Church.Churches certainly are not what they used to be.I am sure there are a handful of Churches left that preach from the Bible.I have been very disappointed in several Churches I have attended.It is more the world than in the House of God.

 

So are you advocating disobedience to the command in God's word?

 

 

I am saying that attending Church is not a salvation issue.You will not go to hell if you do not attend.There are many who go to Church who are not a Christian.You can also pick up some false doctrine by attending many of the Churches in our world today.Many can not attend a Church.That is ok as long as they are studying the literal true word of God daily.

Yes it is not enough to go to a church.   One should attend a church that actually preaches the truth, and not a church that teaches salvation is based on something other than Jesus Christ.    Going to church isn't how we are saved, but there fellowship benefits that those who choose not to attend will miss out on.    There is coming a time when it will be better to stay away from churches due to the way so many are falling into false doctrine and are capitulating to the world's system.  Many churches are not even worth attending, these days.

Can we ignore God's commands?

Who is talking about ignoring God's commands??  

Those who say we can forsake the assembling together of believers contrary to the command of scripture.

Who is saying that?   All anyone is saying is that it is not a salvation issue.   If a person   does not attend church, it is not going to send them to hell.  Some people have issues that make church attendance a nonstarter.  Trying to pin salvation to church attendance is false doctrine and a false gospel and that means such ideas should be rejected by those of us who are actually Christians.  

Attending Church is a way for people not to forsake the assembling together.

The OP presented two questions.

I understand the qualms with saying we must be tied to a brick and mortar buildiing to be where we assemble.    But to even question being tied to a "brick and mortar" building misses the point entirely.

We go to "brick and mortar" buildings because this is where we have chosen to meet.   It is not the building that makes the "church" - it is the people who meet there.  To look at the building is to have our eyes on the wrong thing.

Even in the very early times of christianity, when they met in homes, it would be the homes of wealthy believers, homes which then became set aside as the regular meeting place for believers in that area; the gathering for worship then becoming the only purpose for that building, what was once a home.

Focusing on the building misses the bigger picture of needing to assemble together.    

I know people who refuse to do so in an extreme over reaction to organized christianity, seeking to go it alone.    This is in disobedience to what we are commanded to do.

 

 

None of that actually addresses the issues I raised.  All anyone is saying is that it is  not salvation issue in terms of gaining or losing salvation.  No one is going to hell for not going to church.  They are missing out on a lot of blessings and they are disobeying the Lord, and the Lord will handle that.  But no one is losing salvation over it.

So then my question moves towards disobedience in general.

Can one knowingly, deliberately disobey God and presume upon His grace or are there repercussions for such disobedience?     I ask this because this is what I see as the real issue.

There may be repercussions  for disobedience, but why does everyone act as if the only repercussion that exists is losing one's salvation?   There are always repercussions for disobedience, but God has a lot of options available to him to deal with it and none of them include sending someone to hell.

Well  what do you think the repercussions would be?

I don't look at repercussions in an all or nothing, black and white manner.      But I also don't exclude the possibility that someone's disobedience could be so serious, they have separated themselves from God.

 

 

 

 

Nothing can separate from God (Rom. 8: 37-39).  Repercussions include conviction, and even physical hardships if we fail to respond to that. God is not going to toss people away for not going to church.   You don't have the Holy Spirit and so you don't know Him.  You judge after the flesh and God doesn't.  There lots of blessings people miss out on when they fail purposely to plug in to a local church. The notion that you have to keep yourself saved is lie.  Not going to church doesn't result in losing salvation.

Nothing outside ourselves can separate us from God, no outside power acting upon us can separate us from God.

But we did not suddenly become Stepford Wives when we became christians.  God does not want robots.  He wants beings who will freely love Him of their own free will.  We still have our free will and we can take ourselves out of God's and separate ourselves.

The scriptures never give us an unconditional protection even from our own choices.

In fact, the very scripture you refer to shows us the conditional nature of Jesus' words:

 

John 10

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

 

the Greek verb for "perish"  is in the Subjunctive Mood:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

 

This means what is described, "they will never perish" is not describing something that is a certainty, rather something that is a possibility, a potentiality, something that may or may not occur.

 

 

Whether it occurs or not depends on the circumstances.

And so our  "never perishing" is dependent on the circumstances - it may or may not occur -  it is not certain.  

 

The statement that  no one is able to snatch us out of God's hands deals with others, not the believer him/herself.

"Snatch" is

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

 

This is speaking of actions of those on the outside, not actions by God or the believer.

It says nothing about what the believer him/herself can choose to do.

 

When one looks the Greek used in passages speaking about our salvation, it becomes abundantly clear our salvation, while we have received our initial salvation,  our final salvation is not automatically assured.    

This is why Paul tells us very strong and in no uncertain terms:

 

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
 

The English, as strong as it is, does not convey the direness of his warning and command to us here the Greek does.

"Fear" is

φόβος phóbos, fob'-os; from a primary φέβομαι phébomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:—be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror

 

"Trembling" is 

τρόμος trómos, trom'-os; from G5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:—+ tremble(-ing).

a trembling or quaking with fear

with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty

 

There is absolutely no reason to work out one's salvation if one's salvation is assured.

And there is absolutely NO reason to do so with such dire fear and trembling if one's salvation is assured.

 

Obviously, we need to do something on a continual basis to ensure our final salvation.

 

As far as your personal judgememt of myself or anyone else,  I am sorry to have to be so blunt, but this is the truth:   

Only God has the authority to make such judgements.   

No one here speaks as the oracle of God.

 

 

 

I have a ticket to heaven.Without a doubt I know I will see Jesus Christ face to face as soon as I get HOME.

Can you turn your back on Jesus, deny Him, and if you do will that ticket still be good?

 

 

 

Yes,it would.I might lose a lot of rewards but I would still go to heaven if I originally asked Him into my heart.But......if I originally did ask Him into my heart why would I turn my back on Him?Everyone has doubts occasionally.

 

Even though the scriptures say

Matthew 10:33

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

 

?

 

Question: "Once saved always saved?"

Answer: Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact.

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

(f) For the most conclusive argument, Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

Edited September 6, 2015 by bopeep1909