Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[Spock]

10 hours ago, Shar said:

Yes,  Look at the verse carefully!  Yes, let no man judge you for eating kosher (meat), keeping the festivals (holyday), the new moon (another Jewish festival) and the Sabbath (the 7th day of rest)  Don't let anyone judge you for keeping the Jewish days.  Yes, they are a foreshadow, but they are not gone.   Christ brings the true meaning into the keeping of them.

Interesting viewpoint  shar!

Up until now, I have  looked at this the opposite way, but I believe your viewpoint works well too.  These former pagans were now adopting Jewish way, customs, and days to honor. No doubt their "friends" we're thinking them oddballs now. Hmmm

spock out

[thereselittleflower]

On 1/5/2016 at 10:05 PM, gdemoss said:

Dead works = works of the law

I agree.

 

[thereselittleflower]

19 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

What does scripture mean by dead works? 

The works of the Mosaic law achieved much for the children of Israel. The works of the law was pleasing to God and in return, God would bless the children of Israel with rain for abundant crops, health, protection from enemies, and living in the land of milk and honey. These were wonderful blessings, and not worthless, so works of the law done by the children of Israel were not without merit or benefit.

So, what does the NT means when it says the works of the law are dead works? Well, the central benefit of the New Covenant is eternal salvation (as opposed to the Mosaic covenant which promised temporal salvation). Since the Mosaic covenant did not promise eternal salvation, obeying the Mosaic law to achieve eternal salvation is a dead work.

(This reminds me of a Rabbinical story. A Rabbi who was well known for his piety and obedience to God was approached by a man. The man challenged the Rabbi, saying that the Rabbi gets great blessings and rewards for his obedience of God. The man said, the next day, all that you do in obedience to God, give the blessings to me for your obedience. The Rabbi quickly agreed and was thrilled. The Rabbi said, thank you so much because for once, I am going to be obeying God just out of loving God and His law, without any benefit for myself. )

That is a wonderful story.

When people realize the import of what that Rabbi learned, I think we would see great changes in how people live their christian lives.

 

[Shar]

10 hours ago, other one said:

goodness, talk about adding to scripture..   I'm not even going to address this kind of scripture abuse....   I am way too physically ill to deal with it.

I did not add to scripture.  I quoted it.  Remember, Gentiles were coming into the one true faith in the G-d of Israel.  Jews were not becoming Gentiles or living the pagan lifestyle.

[thereselittleflower]

16 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Since God does not directly say why He told the children of Israel to eat only those animals categorized as clean, there are indications.

First of all, I want to say that prior to the Mosaic law, there were no restrictions on which animals were clean to eat. When Noah and family left the boat, the animals which were considered clean were clean for sacrifices, not food.

Noah 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. ² The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. ³ Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. ⁴ Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

So, to Noah and his children, any living animal was given as food. The only limitation was that they were not to consume blood.

When we get to the Kosher laws, God told the children of Israel only to eat clean animals which are listed. God said to do this because the children of Israel were to be a Holy people. Holy means to be separated for God's purposes. The dietary laws were to separate the children of Israel from the surrounding people. The children of Israel could not eat with the surrounding people and eating together is a standard way to socialize. Since the children of Israel could not socialize with the surrounding people, they were kept physically separated. In the NT, the indwelling Holy Spirit separates believers from the non-believers. So, living a life of a believer, separated by God, and following the leading of the Holy Spirit separates us from the surrounding people. 

As a new believer, I came from a life in which I had little contact with non-Jews. It took me over a year of believing on Jesus before I went into a church (which is predominantly Gentile). My very first time going to a church was very strange. I did not know what to do, or what was proper in a church. I did not know where women sat (as in synagogue, women sit in a separate section from the men. I did not know if I was to wear a head covering like in synagogue. I knew nothing. Once I figured out that men and women sit together, I found a place to sit. A very nice couple in front of me started a conversation. I asked them a few questions which they gracefully answered. They invited me over for lunch on the following Sunday and I accepted. The next Sunday, I followed them in my car to their house. When we entered, the wife told me lunch was almost ready and if I wanted to, we could go to the kitchen and visit. Once there, she took out of the oven, a big pink thing with little sticks stuck into it and pineaple wrings hanging off of it. She smiled quote proudly at the special meal she had prepared. For me, I stared at the thing as I had not stopped to consider that they might serve ham. I had never eaten pig before and I was in a quandry. I stood there with my mouth dropped open thinking 'what do I do?', and the story of Peter and the sheet of unclean things came to mind. In the mean time, my hostess was trying to figure out why I looked so shocked and horrified when it dawned on her that I am Jewish and probably never had pig before. When she started to apologize, I stopped her and said do not worry, for we are now family in Jesus. Kosher could not separate me from the body of Messiah, as we are one in Jesus. I ate ham. (But as a side note, I really do not care for the taste.)   As believers, we come from a wide variety of cultures, and physical separators like food should not separate us. 

As another added note, certain traditional Jewish food which is Kosher, many non-Jews find disgusting. I have cooked traditional dinners for Gentile friends and do serve some of the things others find disgusting so that they can try them, but I always make sure there is plenty of other food, Gentiles will find palatable.

Thank you so much for that wonderful post and story -  I got to the "big pink thing" and busted up laughing.  

 

[thereselittleflower]

11 hours ago, Shar said:

But you forgot the early quote of James in Act 15:19...."It is my judgement that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to G-d."   To lay all the teachings on them at once and to immediately expect more would have overwhelmed Gentiles unfamiliar with the monotheist faith.   So James then lists out the 4 minimum requirements for the Gentile to be able to get close enough to a Jew to teach them.  You did not quote the last part of James' reasoning which he stated in Acts15:21 "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."   It was expected that as the Gentile entered the fold they would eventually learn the faith.   

"get close enough to a jew to teach them"  ??

Are you serious?

That is not christianty my friend.  Christianity is not now, and has never been, about gentiles acting in a certain fashion  to be able to get close enough to a jew to teach them.  

      

10 hours ago, other one said:

     goodness, talk about adding to scripture..   I'm not even going to address this kind of scripture abuse....   I am way too physically ill to deal with it.

I am in complete agreement.

   

18 minutes ago, Shar said:

      I did not add to scripture.  I quoted it.  Remember, Gentiles were coming into the one true faith in the G-d of Israel.  Jews were not becoming Gentiles or living the pagan lifestyle.

In your claims you did indeed add to what was said in scripture -  never were gentiles required to behave in a certain way so they could be taught by Jewish teachers.  

Peter and Paul ordained Gentiles to teach and lead the flocks.     God is no respecter of persons, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ but ONE NEW MAN.

• Sons Through Faith in Christ
  Galatians 3  27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

 

• Put on the New Self
  Colossians 3  10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- 11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. 

 

• One in Christ
  Ephesians 2   14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity

 

Notice again what the scriptures says here:

The Law of commandments was ABOLISHED in CHRIST'S FLESH.

 

 

[Shar]

10 hours ago, other one said:

Col 2:6-19

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —   things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
NASB

I just find this all fascinating.....

 

Yes, we are to walk in the Messiah.  Yes, we are not to adopt the philosophy of the world system.  Yes, we have been circumcised by our belief in Him.  Yes, Paul states, Now, as a Gentile, don't let anyone judge you for keeping the established feasts and Sabbaths, now that you have pulled away from your paganism.  There seems to be a mindset that if you follow any of G-d festivals or Sabbaths that you have added to G-d's word.  This is not so.  Yes, these are a foreshadow of the Messiah and in each one of them we are reminded of the richness of Him.

The men who came from James were insisting that Gentiles had to be circumcised and become Jews in order to be saved.  This is false.  Gentiles are grafted into Israel through their belief in Messiah.  Paul throughout Acts refers to the faith as a sect of Judaism, The Way. 

[Shar]

8 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

What you have written is a common error within Hebrew roots, which is a Gentile movement. The synagogues were led by Jewish Rabbis. Jewish Rabbis taught that Gentiles do not need to keep the Mosaic law (with a few exceptions). The Rabbis read the law carefully and did not require Gentiles to keep the laws given only to the children of Israel.

If a Gentile desired to keep the law of Moses, they were told to become physically ritually circumcised, but the NT objects strongly to that teaching, that Gentiles need to be circumcised becoming Jewish. The NT says that God accepted Gentiles as Gentiles. So, the synagogues would have taught Gentiles not to keep the Mosaic law which applied to Jewish people, and the Apostles told the Gentiles not to be circumcised and become Jews.

I am not talking about what Jewish Rabbis taught in Rabbinic Law.  Just the many references already stated in Scripture.  Gentiles entering into the faith had no other means of worship than the existing system G-d established and Paul referred to often as the Jewish sect, known as the Way.  It would have been blasphemous to fold any form of pagan worship into the practice.   For example, the Feast of Ishtar (Easter) to substitute for Passover, our L-rd's death, burial and resurrection.

[Shar]

36 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

The shadows are gone, or did you not read the Scriptures? "Until the time of reformation" should mean something, but some people prefer the shadows to the reality, the carnal ordinances to the spiritual truths. Jesus said that nothing which enters the man defiles him. I guess you've decided to dismiss His words.

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation (Gk diorthosis = restoration from imperfect to perfect).

Thank you so much for that wonderful post and story -  I got to the "big pink thing" and busted up laughing.  

 

If these are all gone, why is G-d referring to them and their practice in His earthly kingdom, when He sets up His earthly reign upon His return?  Why does He require that all representatives of each Gentile nation come to the festival of Succoth (Festival of Tabernacles) in Jerusalem?  And if they do not, that nation does not receive rain for 1 full year (Zech. 14:16-21).   Hmmmm, seems like they are not gone and those Gentiles better show up.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Shar

[Shar]

51 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

48 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

"get close enough to a jew to teach them"  ??

Are you serious?

That is not christianty my friend.  Christianity is not now, and has never been, about gentiles acting in a certain fashion  to be able to get close enough to a jew to teach them.  

      

I am in complete agreement.

   

In your claims you did indeed add to what was said in scripture -  never were gentiles required to behave in a certain way so they could be taught by Jewish teachers.  

Peter and Paul ordained Gentiles to teach and lead the flocks.     God is no respecter of persons, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ but ONE NEW MAN.

• Sons Through Faith in Christ
  Galatians 3  27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

 

• Put on the New Self
  Colossians 3  10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- 11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. 

 

• One in Christ
  Ephesians 2   14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity

 

Notice again what the scriptures says here:

The Law of commandments was ABOLISHED in CHRIST'S FLESH.

 

 

Thank you so much for that wonderful post and story -  I got to the "big pink thing" and busted up laughing.  

 

If you were educated in Judaism you would know that Gentiles were unclean and a Jew could not even enter the house of one.  Hence, Peter protesting about the vision and why the Jews could not enter the Roman palace or they would be defiled and not able to celebrate the Passover.  That is the whole point of the Gospel.  We are now made clean in Messiah and grafted into Israel.  There is no adding to Scripture.  Know Judaism and you will know the scriptures.  Rem

Don't forget.  The entire Bible is a Jewish book, written by Jews in a Jewish language, with Jewish customs, in Jewish logic, regarding a Jewish Messiah, who will return as a Jew and establish His throne in a Jewish land with Jewish worship established.  Please do not wipe out everything Jewish in favor of Replacement Theology.   [The apostles, other than Paul, did not write in Greek.  They had to have someone assist them from the original Hebrew.]

Edited January 6, 2016 by Shar