Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[Spock]

10 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

spock , maybe you should change your name to peace maker, , it sounds good brother, lol

Q,

i can't help but think God may not be too pleased that man chose the day the pagans celebrated the birth of Saturnalia (Sun God)  as the same day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. (I also believe your climate and weather analysis concerning Israel is in error. My study on that is different from yours, so I will stick with mine and not debate this with you.)

i also can't help thinking God may not be pleased that man chose the day pagans celebrated the Feast of Ishtar (resurrection of a God called Tammuz, the only begotten son of the moon goodness and sun God) instead of on or around Passover as the day of the resurrection of Christ. 

hey, don't get me wrong here - you and anybody else can celebrate religious holidays when and how you see fit. But I have no qualms in relaying to you why I don't celebrate those holidays as you do. 

I guess we must agree to disagree on this one. My love for you is unaffected because of your choice here. 

Shalom,

spock

[Shar]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

en anyone brings a teaching which contradicts New Testament truth, that is false doctrine. The New Testament is there for a reason, and Christians who insist on going back to the Old Covenant are saying (internally) "God has made a mistake, but I am going to fix it".  That is how we end up with cults.  So no matter if you wish to follow the dietary laws of Moses, Scripture (not my opinion) tells you that ALL MEATS are clean. I already posted the Scriptures (which you ignored) so here they are again:

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

This is from revelation and you can hardly justify that if a believer does not agree with your interpretation of matters that are not considered the greater importance of the truth that we are saved by grace through Jesus Christ, but through some other way, that you can say they are departing from the faith.  They are not departing from the faith  There are multiple interpretations on some passages throughout the Bible.  Could we be so dangerously blaspheming the Holy Spirit within them when we then accuse them of heed seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, which constitutes an actual practice in witchcraft?

 

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

If they disagree with your interpretation they are not speaking lies and the Holy Spirit, that has sealed your brother and sister in the Lord, has not departed them.

 

 

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

The original Greek shows this translated as "to abstain from foods".  Your brethren who differ in opinion are not abstaining from foods, for their argument is God did not define unclean animals as food.  They are not convinced with the passages that have been quoted that unclean animals are now food.  They received the food that God has defined as food with Thanksgiving.  They give a blessing at each meal.

 

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

You brethren of different opinion will not argue what God has created is not good, for what He has created is good and has a defined role and purpose.  Also, what He defined as good we agree.  However, they will differ with interpretation that if does not included unclean animals that God did not define as food and therefore not good.  This is what you need to understand of your brethren who do not include unclean animals in their diet.

 

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

They would challenge that this could not be used for anything for would you serve up a Blow Fish or any variety of poisonous frogs, good creatures of God, pray over them and eat them?  Would this now render them any less deadly?  Of course not.

 

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. (1 Tim 4:1-6).

 

 

Please note verse 4. Every creature means EVERY CREATURE, and this corresponds to Genesis 9:3,4 which says “every moving thing:

 

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

A direction for Noah, before all mankind was vegetarian.  Noah knew clean from unclean animals.  It is interesting you won't find thereafter any reference in the Bible that they served unclean meat for consumption, but actually references of clean meat instead.  The dietary laws distinguished God's people from the pagan Gentiles, as another form of cleanliness.  Your brethren who differ in this opinion would say God's people are still to be distinguished from the pagan.  This would be an immediate and obvious distinction.    We must all come to respect we are not going to agree on every disputable thing, but we can agree that we are One in Messiah and therefore are to respect and love on another.  Let these discussions show tolerance and respect.  Simply state your case.

 

Quote

 

Are these the words of God, or the words of men?  If they are the words of God, they should be believed and applied without argument. Those who prefer dietary restrictions are free to keep them. But they dare not claim that those restrictions have NOT been removed.

 

When anyone brings a teaching which contradicts New Testament truth, that is false doctrine. The New Testament is there for a reason, and Christians who insist on going back to the Old Covenant are saying (internally) "God has made a mistake, but I am going to fix it".  That is how we end up with cults.  So no matter if you wish to follow the dietary laws of Moses, Scripture (not my opinion) tells you that ALL MEATS are clean. I already posted the Scriptures (which you ignored) so here they are a

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Shar

[Shar]

10 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

The letter I quoted is historical, and it was to show the anti-semitic attitude as I stated. The change was to eliminate anything connected to Jews from Christianity. The change of name was to separate from the Jewish people, and not to insert paganism into Christianity. Easter is about honoring what Jesus did. While it separates from the Passover, the meaning and purpose is the same. As I also stated, most Christians, after hundreds of years, do not know the source of the name or date change, and celebrate in an entire Jesus honoring manner. The celebration of Easter is not pagan.

When you said that I did not sound or act like a Jewish person, that was very judgmental and clearly wrong, and since you claim to know Jewish people, you should have known better then to say that.     

 

I am sorry you took offense.  My purpose was to determine if you were truly Jewish as you did not post articles that supported it but an actual article that defamed Jews and portrayed them in disgusting and hateful manner.  That article really upset me as I love my Jewish Messiah and His Chosen People, with whom He is not forgotten or done with.  He will truly fulfill all His promises to them, once this "times of the Gentiles" passes.   I have not been on this site for about a year and I was not truly familiar with your posts or personal background you may have previously shared.   As respect to the non-Jew on this site, I will leave the dashes out and hope I don't insult my Messianic Jewish brethren on other posts, if I slip and leave them out.  I believe they will be gracious, if I slip.

[Shar]

10 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

But still that's what YOU say.  It is your opinion, and many disagree with your opinion.

They can show Scripture that differs from your opinion.

But you won't find the answer on this forum.  Since it is basically unregulated here, except for very basic constraints, 

it just goes in circles without resolution.

You'll have to look elsewhere, if you want to.  No requirement to, no.  Just if you want to.

 

That is my whole point.  On these posts, you have your interpretation and others have theirs.  My point is they will differ.  All these posts go around in circles without resolution.  We never will have final answers here when the nature of differing opinions exist.  I am advocating for respecting each one's posts and do not become unloving or accusatory.  State you opinion and move on.

[Shar]

10 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

The bible mentions Chanukah (Feast of Dedication) and that Jesus was at the Temple during the time of the celebration. Chanukah is not in scripture. Yet, Jesus did not criticize or object. Jesus actually did some Jewish traditions which are not in scripture.

What Jesus did criticize was traditions which altered or contradicted scripture. Traditions are not necessarily bad things. As long as they do not cause a person to go against scripture.

We know that Jesus was born and that those who were aware of the birth of the Messiah saw it as a celebration. We do not know when exactly Jesus was born. But, if people see His birth as something to celebrate, and choose a common date to celebrate together, it is a tradition which is not counter to scripture. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus for those who view it as the birth of Jesus and want to honor Him. It is not pagan, but is a good thing to do. God uses Christmas to bring the gospel, and I know of people who have come to Jesus thru Christmas.

For something to be a pagan celebration, it has to celebrate or honor pagan gods. Neither Christmas or Easter celebrate or honor pagan gods. They celebrate and honor Jesus. So, neither is pagan. But if a person who worships a pagan god, chooses to do so on Christmas or Easter, it is not those holidays, but that person who is a pagan and doing pagan worship.

As far as the timing of Jesus birth, we do not know for sure, but one of the least likely times would be around Succoth (Feast of booths). The dates do not match up, and the weather around Bethlehem which is more of a arrid/desert, would not allow the shepherds to have their sheep out grazing in the hills outside Bethlehem at the time of Succoth. Succoth is at the end of the dry season when all the grass in the hills is brown and dead. The wet season starts at the end of October or middle November, so the grass would be green in December thru April or May.  

Finally, I did not grow up with Christmas, and to me Christmas involves memories of times past. I have no memories so do not relate well with Christmas, so I do not celebrate Christmas. I have no problem for those who keep that tradition to honor Jesus. Actually, I encourage them because so many Jewish people are curious about Jesus and Christmas and are more willing to hear more about Jesus at that time. It is a wonderful evangelistic time.     

Q, I looked up the temperatures and weather for Israel in late September, early October (time of Succoth).  Their high is between 75-85.  Later in October, they have some rain, but not any large amount.  The shepherds would have been out with their flock during that time.  Q, this is a great article that shows how He was most likely born on the 1st day of Succoth and then circumcised on the 8th day of Succoth.  God's festivals are called His appointed times.  After this study, you can clearly see that it is more likely that our Messiah was born on God's appointed time of Succoth and not an appointed time of a pagan festival.  The article is called. "On What Day was Jesus born?"  Give it a read and tell me what you think

http://biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm

 

[Shar]

14 hours ago, Shar said:

Thanks.  I did not get a dialogue box.  I messaged a Moderator and he said they have been getting complaints about this, sporadically.  He is looking into it.  Hopefully it will be resolved.

Thanks a lot for your consideration and help!  Blessings

Thanks.  It worked this time.  Thanks for the steps to complete.

[Shar]

11 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

The bible mentions Chanukah (Feast of Dedication) and that Jesus was at the Temple during the time of the celebration. Chanukah is not in scripture. Yet, Jesus did not criticize or object. Jesus actually did some Jewish traditions which are not in scripture.

What Jesus did criticize was traditions which altered or contradicted scripture. Traditions are not necessarily bad things. As long as they do not cause a person to go against scripture.

We know that Jesus was born and that those who were aware of the birth of the Messiah saw it as a celebration. We do not know when exactly Jesus was born. But, if people see His birth as something to celebrate, and choose a common date to celebrate together, it is a tradition which is not counter to scripture. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus for those who view it as the birth of Jesus and want to honor Him. It is not pagan, but is a good thing to do. God uses Christmas to bring the gospel, and I know of people who have come to Jesus thru Christmas.

For something to be a pagan celebration, it has to celebrate or honor pagan gods. Neither Christmas or Easter celebrate or honor pagan gods. They celebrate and honor Jesus. So, neither is pagan. But if a person who worships a pagan god, chooses to do so on Christmas or Easter, it is not those holidays, but that person who is a pagan and doing pagan worship.

In regard to this last quote.  Just curious, not being argumentative, but if I adopt this requirement for it to be truly considered pagan,  would it then be OK for me to adopt a modern day Pagan celebration as long as I substitute God for Their False God in their liturgy and pray to God instead of Their False God? 

Quote

As far as the timing of Jesus birth, we do not know for sure, but one of the least likely times would be around Succoth (Feast of booths). The dates do not match up, and the weather around Bethlehem which is more of a arrid/desert, would not allow the shepherds to have their sheep out grazing in the hills outside Bethlehem at the time of Succoth. Succoth is at the end of the dry season when all the grass in the hills is brown and dead. The wet season starts at the end of October or middle November, so the grass would be green in December thru April or May.  

Finally, I did not grow up with Christmas, and to me Christmas involves memories of times past. I have no memories so do not relate well with Christmas, so I do not celebrate Christmas. I have no problem for those who keep that tradition to honor Jesus. Actually, I encourage them because so many Jewish people are curious about Jesus and Christmas and are more willing to hear more about Jesus at that time. It is a wonderful evangelistic time.     

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Shar

[Qnts2]

2 hours ago, Shar said:

Q, I looked up the temperatures and weather for Israel in late September, early October (time of Succoth).  Their high is between 75-85.  Later in October, they have some rain, but not any large amount.  The shepherds would have been out with their flock during that time.  Q, this is a great article that shows how He was most likely born on the 1st day of Succoth and then circumcised on the 8th day of Succoth.  God's festivals are called His appointed times.  After this study, you can clearly see that it is more likely that our Messiah was born on God's appointed time of Succoth and not an appointed time of a pagan festival.  The article is called. "On What Day was Jesus born?"  Give it a read and tell me what you think

http://biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm

 

Israel has a wide range of weather. Around Bethlehem is a temperate climate. In December, it is in the 50's and 60's. During the summer months up to October is the dry season, with little to no rain. Everything dries up. No grass in September or October for grazing. It takes the rainy season which doesn't start until the end of October, and a couple of weeks of rain to cause the grass to begin to re-grow. In December, the hills around Bethlehem is in full bloom. 

I have read the arguments for a birth around Sukkoth. I have looked at scripture, and the environment. Some claim that shepherds would not be out with sheep in Dec because it is too snowy and cold. That is not true because Bethlehem is a temperate climate. There are areas in Israel where they ski in December, but definitely not Bethlehem. Too many of the arguments are based on false information. There is the argument based on the Priestly courses, but important information is ignored to slant the outcome. Each Priestly course is every 24 weeks, or twice a year. Most ignore that they occur twice a year, and all Priests serve during Passover. After all of this research, I found that December was a possible time. December can not be eliminated, but during the time around Succoth, there is maybe a 10% chance, it could be correct, if the normal weather is drastically off for that year.  But, in scripture, Succoth is not fulfilled by Jesus birth, and there is no significance tying Succoth to Jesus birth. Succoth is tied to the end times. It is more likely, that Jesus was born in December, or around Passover.  

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, Shar said:

I am sorry you took offense.  My purpose was to determine if you were truly Jewish as you did not post articles that supported it but an actual article that defamed Jews and portrayed them in disgusting and hateful manner.  That article really upset me as I love my Jewish Messiah and His Chosen People, with whom He is not forgotten or done with.  He will truly fulfill all His promises to them, once this "times of the Gentiles" passes.   I have not been on this site for about a year and I was not truly familiar with your posts or personal background you may have previously shared.   As respect to the non-Jew on this site, I will leave the dashes out and hope I don't insult my Messianic Jewish brethren on other posts, if I slip and leave them out.  I believe they will be gracious, if I slip.

If you want to find out if a person is Jewish, simply ask them if they are Jewish, (not asking if they are a Jew(. You don't win any points by saying they don't sound Jewish or act Jewish. That is an insult in Jewish culture.

If you don't know a person but wonder if they are Jewish, another safer approach would be to ask them if they are a Gentile. Anti-semites will ask a Jew if they are a Jew, for the purpose of coming after them verbally or worse so some Jewish people become concerned with that question ' are you a Jew', but if you ask if they are a Gentile, it is a less threatening question. 

 

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, Shar said:

In regard to this last quote.  Just curious, not being argumentative, but if I adopt this requirement for it to be truly considered pagan,  would it then be OK for me to adopt a modern day Pagan celebration as long as I substitute God for Their False God in their liturgy and pray to God instead of Their False God? 

 

Do you use a wedding ring?

Do you know wedding rings are of pagan origin?

 

  

2 hours ago, Shar said:

Thanks.  It worked this time.  Thanks for the steps to complete.

 

I'm glad you were able to get it to work and it helped.   Sounds like a lot of steps but once you get how to do it, it's fast.