Is the doctrine of the Trinity biblical?

[JohnD]

On 1/19/2016 at 11:10 PM, thereselittleflower said:

And yet John, the bible does not explicitly define the Trinity, and so you have other interpretations that result in something other than the Trinity, or some abridged form of the Trinity.

Without the testimony of the Early Church to settle which interpretation is right, all we have are a variety of interpretations each claiming to be right.

 

 

Um, I disagree. Not when we allow the Bible to be our source and the Holy Spirit the authority.

Anyone or anything else interferes with God's teaching and authenticating the truth.

Also there is the tendency to elevate the extrabiblical authority to equal standing with the Holy Spirit or the scriptures and in some cases a higher standing.

So, no, I completely disagree.

The Law

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NASB95)

2 “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

The Prophets

Revelation 22:18–19 (NASB95)

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

The Writings

Proverbs 30:5–6 (NASB95)

5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

 

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

There is scriptural proof, but you won't find one verse being explicit of the entire teaching.   

 

 

But the amalgam of the Bible (the Bible in it's entirety) does explicitly teach the Trinity (triune nature of the one God).

[JohnD]

It's the "helps" of man that keep mucking up the crystal clear waters of sound doctrine.

The so-called apostle's creed, for example, begins in error...

"I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and Earth..."

John 1:14 (NASB95)

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The only thing God the Father created was the body of God the Son.

Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

Jesus (preincarnate) is the LONE CREATOR of all things created in the beginning:

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)

24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

John 1:3 (NASB95)

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (NASB95)

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

And you will note that Isaiah 44:24 begins with he YHVH calling himself our kinsman redeemer (which the Father and the Holy Spirit cannot be since only God the Word became flesh). So Jesus is YHVH (the LORD, Jehovah, Yahweh).

The Father and the Spirit were present in the beginning at creation...

Genesis 1:2 (NASB95)

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

1 John 1:1–2 (NASB95)

1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—

2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

But God the Word acted alone in creation of all things created in the beginning.

[thereselittleflower]

16 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Um, I disagree. Not when we allow the Bible to be our source and the Holy Spirit the authority.

I have never found a verse that specifically states that God is one being, 3 divine persons, all eternally pre-exiting, all eternally co-equal.

We can come to the conclusion of the Trinity logically from scripture, but there is no actual statement in scripture of the Trinity.  What we do see are several scriptures which deal with various aspects of the Trinity, but the Trinity itself is a logical conclusion when all the scripture is taken as a whole.

 

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, completedbeliever1 said:

I am happy to see that this subject was brought up again.

For some reason I didn't see that until now on another post.

I do not see the trinity in scripture. There is no scriptural proof.

Obviously this is false.

[JohnD]

1 minute ago, thereselittleflower said:

I have never found a verse that specifically states that God is one being, 3 divine persons, all eternally pre-exiting, all eternally co-equal.

We can come to the conclusion of the Trinity logically from scripture, but there is no actual statement in scripture of the Trinity.  What we do see are several scriptures which deal with various aspects of the Trinity, but the Trinity itself is a logical conclusion when all the scripture is taken as a whole.

 

I added to the post you quoted so you might want to review... I'll delete this response if you change your mind about this response. {smile}

[thereselittleflower]

21 minutes ago, JohnD said:

But the amalgam of the Bible (the Bible in it's entirety) does explicitly teach the Trinity (triune nature of the one God).

It teaches it implicitly.  It must be mined from scripture.  If it were explict, there would be no need to pull the various threads about it, in scripture, together.

 

     

3 minutes ago, JohnD said:

      I added to the post you quoted so you might want to review... I'll delete this response if you change your mind about this response. {smile}

 

I think your post demonstrates what I was saying.   If it were explicit, there would be a passage that states all elements of the Trinity doctrine clearly and so people wouldn't come away from scripture saying it's not there.

I think we have to be cognizant of this fact when we talk to people who do not believe in the Trinity. It's not super easy to find.  I have never met anyone who has come to the conclusion that God is a Trinity, that the Trinity is one Being, Three Divine Persons,  who the members of the Trinity are, the relationship of the Divine Persons in the Trinity to one another, and Their co-equal, co eternal pre-existing state just by reading the scriptures without any teaching on the Trinity or exposure to the concept at all.

 

 

 

[JohnD]

1 minute ago, thereselittleflower said:

It teaches it implicitly.  It must be mined from scripture.  If it were explict, there would be no need to pull the various threads about it, in scripture, together.

I understand your Roman Catholic motivations here. The discovery of the triune nature of the one God was during the time Constantine legalized Christianity freeing believers up to compare New Testament scriptures with Old Testament scriptures (in effect the whole Bible) for the first time in history. and the Roman Catholic Church would like to jealously guard having a hand in this. I get that. But setting aside for the moment out differences about "the Church," the only authority can be:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NASB95)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

[JohnD]

It's not about the Protestant - Catholic - Messianic - Orthodox tug o' wars... it's about Jesus and to be about Jesus we must first submit to the authority of Holy Spirit interpreted scripture which is the authentication of Jesus. 

[thereselittleflower]

5 minutes ago, JohnD said:

I understand your Roman Catholic motivations here. The discovery of the triune nature of the one God was during the time Constantine legalized Christianity freeing believers up to compare New Testament scriptures with Old Testament scriptures (in effect the whole Bible) for the first time in history. and the Roman Catholic Church would like to jealously guard having a hand in this. I get that. But setting aside for the moment out differences about "the Church," the only authority can be:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NASB95)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

JohnD, the scriptures don't tell us to impute motives.   They tell us to believe the best in others not the worst.  This is not a "Catholic" issue.  It is a "how we learn" issue.

I have no agenda other than to promote understanding that someone reading scriptures alone can have a very hard time coming to a correct understanding of the Trinity.

As I said above, I have never met anyone who believes in the Trinity who came to that understanding all by themselves devoid of any influence outside of their reading of scripture.  In all cases it has been "Oh, I see where it is in scripture!" after it has been pointed out and explained.

 

And you are wrong about your history.  The Trinity was explained by the Early Church Fathers long before Constantine.  I've already posted this information.  The Council of Nicaea protected what had already been handed down in previous centuries.  I'll try to find it for you.