Raptures & Resurrections

[Serving]

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We Rise Soon after Death

 

Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.

Is it not written that Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead and entered heaven?

YET .. Lazarus died BEFORE Christ .. think about that .. Lazarus DIED BEFORE CHRIST .. but God proclaims that JESUS was the FIRST to RISE (in SPIRIT) and ENTER HEAVEN  .. see the contradiction?

That interpretation of Lazarus literally going to heaven truly BREAKS scripture and contradicts the written word .. UNLESS .. unless it is actually the PARABLE of Lazarus after all, and not a literal event as MOST erroneously believe, because the explanation above speaks for itself and is IMPOSSIBLE to deny .. Lazarus went NO WHERE, instead it was CHRIST who entered heaven FIRST .. meaning .. Lazarus was truly dead all along, and his spirit 'sleeping', as it were .. it is a PARABLE.

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When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Since the dead know nothing, it needs to be understood as exactly that .. absence of consciousness .. then by that same rule, time also means nothing too .. meaning .. even though the thief died 2000 odd years ago, since time stands still at death, then the DAY he died, will, to the thief, will be as that very same day he is resurrected by Christ, because NO TIME has passed TO the thief .. one second he died, the very next second he opens his eyes and is before Christ .. and in the thieves eyes, it is still the SAME DAY of crucifixion .. TIME STANDS STILL is the key to that mystery.

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Since we rise immediately after death,

A presumption

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people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open.

Another presumption, please refer to previous post's scriptures

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For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves.

They were not in their graves, agreed, but it does not mean they were 1) spirit or 2) in heaven itself either .. God has many mansions .. and only God truly knows WHERE the place of their keeping is .. we can only guess .. nevertheless .. refer back to : Jesus was the FIRST  to ENTER HEAVEN  .. we can't go wrong following that rule and should base all our assumptions ACCORDING to that rule and not IN SPITE OF that rule..

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When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19),

 Please revisit the chapter and notice the key insights :

1) God refused to answer Saul

2) Saul was forced to consult a woman with a FAMILIAR SPIRIT  .. think of the consequences right there straight off the bat ..

3) The woman saw gods ASCENDING  OUT of the EARTH .. meaning .. not DESCENDING .. meaning NOT from heaven .. consider WHAT gods 'she with the FAMILIAR SPIRIT' saw .. consider it is the FAMILIAR SPIRIT who is "SHOWING HER" .. consider FAMILIAR SPIRITS are LIARS and FALSE VISION givers.

4) Notice the language concerning Samuel :

a) an old man COMETH UP .. NOT descending neither HEAVENLY .. coming up from where? .. from the EARTH .. always refer to the golden rule .. Christ was the FIRST to ASCEND  to HEAVEN.

b) "Samuel" said, "why did you BRING ME UP" .. as explanation (a) above.

 

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and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24).

As above .. refer to the golden rule.

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In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

Again refer to the golden rule brother .. nevertheless for clarities sake :

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And BECAUSE of the golden rule, we can begin to understand what is truly meant by PRESERVED ..

 

TO BE CONTINUED >>

 

[Serving]

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Angels have sometimes appeared to people whose eyes were opened to see them.

Actually, it was the other way round, angels appeared to those PERMITTED to see them.

 

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Very often, the Bible says that these angels are people. For example, we read that three men appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18: 2), and that when Jacob wrestled with an angel he wrestled with a man (Genesis 32: 24). Likewise, the angels were people who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5: 13-14), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13: 6-11), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9: 2-3,11; 10: 2-3,6), Daniel (Daniel 9: 21; 10: 5; 12: 6-7), Zechariah (Zechariah 1:8,11), and the women at the sepulcher (Mark 16: 5; Luke 24: 4). The Bible says these angels were people,

Don't forget one thing .. these angels were purposely appearing in the FLESH for differing reasons .. when appearing in the flesh, they are termed PEOPLE .. though the usage of 'people' can be argued, the point of their manifestations need be the focus of purpose.

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and clearly none of them were still in the grave.

Because angels do not die is why .. they are only destroyed be they EVIL, and that is only done in the lake of fire and NOT the grave of men.

 

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The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body,

I agree with this

 

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 while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49).

Please refer to my first post's response / scriptures

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The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.

Already addressed

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The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham; the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).

Always refer to the golden rule

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The body we have in the spiritual world is not the body that we put into the grave. The Bible says that our physical body is corruptible and mortal, which means that it does not last, but rots and dies. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50). "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7). When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7; compare Genesis 3:19).

Yes, BUT please refer to PRESERVED  for clarity

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So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54). Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.

Agreed UNTIL the last statement .. the last trumpet is not when we die, imagine the BILLIONS of trumpet blasts which will NOT END until AFTER the MILLENNIUM anyways, which throws that presumption into turmoil right there .. but the LAST of the 7 trumpets .. on the DAY of RESURRECTION, as explained previously.

 

TO BE CONTINUED >>

[WilliamL]

Ah, the old soul-sleep doctrine. Favored by Seventh-day Adventists and a few others.

2 hours ago, Serving said:

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This is speaking of our potential rewards at the Day of Judgment. It has nothing to do with the state of the soul after death.

2 hours ago, Serving said:

Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave,

 

2 hours ago, Serving said:

An unfortunate modern interpretation .. the scriptures taught we'd become like the angels .. spirit beings and NOT flesh .. glad you see this too.

Jesus rose from the grave in the same body in which he died: the body was gone from the tomb. So also does scripture teach about our dead bodies. For example:

Job 19:26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God...

Luke 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

52 minutes ago, Serving said:

Is it not written that Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead and entered heaven?

True, because both Enoch and Elijah, while being caught up into heaven, never rose from the dead.

2 Cor. 5:4 For we who are in this tent [the physical body] groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

What Paul is saying here is that the physical body will not be done away with in the resurrection; rather, it will be enhanced/"swallowed up by" the greater spiritual body at that time. Just as Jesus showed in his own flesh when he arose from the dead.

[Serving]

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The Grain of Wheat

 

One of the ways that Jesus teaches us about the life after death is by saying, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain" (John 12: 24; compare Matthew 13:31; Mark 4:31; Luke 13:19). This is very similar to the analogy that Paul uses: "Someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as he pleases, and to each seed its own body." (1 Corinthians 15: 35-38)

 

When a seed is put into the ground, the outer husk of this seed simply rots away. But within that seed is a germ of life that is raised up with a completely new plant or body around it. Paul says very clearly here that the body which is raised is not the body which is put into the ground. Furthermore, when the farmer plants his seed, it immediately begins growing. It does not remain dormant in the ground for centuries before a new life begins. Likewise, when our bodies are buried in the ground, the germ of life within each of us is immediately raised up clothed with a new body appropriate for the spiritual world.

I only disagree with the assumption that men are already in heaven as we speak.

 

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Objections

 

Those who believe in a resurrection of the physical body may quote passages to support that belief, but an examination of those passages will show that this is not the teaching of the passages themselves, but is an assumption that is read into them.

Yet many do not believe in a physical bodied resurrection but would still disagree with the overall presumption of men being in heaven now.

 

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What about Job's Prophecy?

 

Job says, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25,26, King James Version). Some people have assumed that the "latter day" means the end of the world, and that "worms destroying this body" means the body rotting in the grave. In fact, the original Hebrew does not mention either "worms" or "body". A more accurate translation is: "And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh shall I see God…" (New King James Version).

 

Job was not talking about his body rotting in the grave, but about the fact that his skin was already virtually destroyed by the boils that covered him from head to foot (Job 2:7, 19:20).

No Job clearly says after his skin is DESTROYED .. meaning .. death .. he did not say after my body is 'virtually destroyed' (metaphorically) .. no .. he said after it IS destroyed .. which again, is death.

 

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When he said, "in my flesh I shall see God," he was not talking about some future time when his body would be resurrected, but he was saying that he would see God before he died, while he was still alive in the body he had.

Disagree .. Job said that in the LATTER DAYS .. WHEN .. his Redeemer shall stand upon the earth .. so Job means FAR INTO THE FUTURE .. the 2nd coming .. that time period.

 

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At the end of the book of Job God did appear to Job, and Job said, " I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You" (Job 42:5). And so the prophecy was fulfilled, that in his flesh he would see God.

That is not the LATTER DAYS .. Job never had the Doctrine OF CHRIST .. therefore he will be in the FLESH which is not a resurrection, but a raising of his dead body into a rejuvenated flesh body .. only those who hold the doctrine of Christ can be raised into Spirit as per Romans etc .. but there is another gathering taking place AFTER Christ has gathered His saints to Himself in the air .. it is described in Ezekiel 37 and many other places in the prophets .. again, that is NOT a resurrection but a raising of the flesh .. not the same as Christ's saints who are raised as Spirit .. remember this : Those Israelites will be the HUMAN Ministers of Christ with the resurrected Saints the SPIRIT Ministers who oversee and RULE those Israelites ..

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And so the prophecy was fulfilled, that in his flesh he would see God. We can also see that God redeemed him at that time, for we are told, "The Lord accepted Job. And the Lord restored Job's losses…. Indeed the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before" (Job 42:9-10). The same chapter shows us what Job meant by "the latter day," for we read, "Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning" (Job 42:12).

Remember this, those were the latter days OF JOB .. not of His REDEEMER of whom it was said, in the latter days Job would SEE HIM in his flesh .. two different latter days there.

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Taken in context, this passage says nothing at all about the resurrection of the physical body centuries later, yet it has been taken as a primary passage supporting that concept.

As above .. for there are TWO GATHERINGS at the 2nd coming, one for those who are Christ's (holding HIS Holy Spirit) and one for the PROMISES to the fathers who did NOT have the doctrine of Christ who will be raised (not resurrected) in the flesh unlike Christ's saints who are raised as immortal SPIRIT beings.

 

TO BE CONTINUED >>

[Serving]

CONTINUED >>

 

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What about the Last Day?

In one passage Jesus says that He will raise people up "at the last day" (John 6: 39-54). From that passage alone, we would not know whether He meant "the last day of the world" or "the last day of their earthly lives."

The answer is within the verse itself .. "raise US up" .. PLURAL .. that solves the confusion because WE don't all die at the same time.

 

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In a similar way, Jesus says in the previous chapter, "The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5: 28, 19). The context shows He was speaking not of a resurrection still centuries distant, but in the present tense.

"COMING" is the key .. "coming" is not present tense unless defined .. which He does define indeed in the very next verse :

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is the 1st resurrection for the GOOD .. the resurrection of damnation is the 2nd resurrection for those NOT in the Lambs book of Life.

 

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"The Father raises up the dead, and gives life to them….

.. OR ..

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

** AS ** is the key .. "For AS the Father raiseth up" etc ..

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The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5: 21, 25).

Remember this : "Let the DEAD bury their own" .. obviously the dead can not bury anything .. but the spiritually DISCERNED can .. THOSE dead.

 

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Clearly, this resurrection was already taking place. Consequently, when Martha spoke of her brother Lazarus remaining in the tomb until "the resurrection at the last day," Jesus corrected her by saying, "I am the resurrection and the life," implying that the resurrection was present.

Jesus was just saying that He can raise anybody He pleases .. and what happened NEXT? .. Christ did not resurrect Lazarus as SPIRIT .. but instead raised him as FLESH .. that is a REVIVAL and not a resurrection into Spirit .. clearly not THE resurrection was being intended there because Lazarus eventually DIED again, whereas the resurrection is the END of DEATH .. see the difference?

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Jesus continued, "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." When we view the teachings about being raised at "the last day" in this context, it becomes clear that it must mean "the last day of their lives."

Note : PRESERVED .. and remember the golden rule.

 

TO BE CONTINUED >>

[Serving]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Ah, the old soul-sleep doctrine. Favored by Seventh-day Adventists and a few others.

3 hours ago, Serving said:

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This is speaking of our potential rewards at the Day of Judgment. It has nothing to do with the state of the soul after death.

#1 :

Ah, but if we were all "guilty by association" .. then none of us would be right. Just because the 7th dayers might have ONE point in agreeance with mine, does not mean we'd agree on every point within that SAME subject .. "association" does not mean total agreement, just shared POINTS of commonality within a whole.

Nevertheless it was Jesus who taught "sleep" initially .. so even the 7th dayers got it from somewhere .. notice Jesus was even laughed at for saying it, for they did not understand His meaning.

Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Clearly she was dead .. but Jesus termed it as "sleepeth" .. clearly He wasn't speaking of her DEAD FLESH .. but of her spirit .. again, this relates to our souls being PRESERVED in a state of unconsciousness .. for "the dead know nothing".

Christ also said Lazarus sleepeth too ..

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

There is a pattern from Christ Himself and NOT originally from the 7th Dayers .. I have no clue what they teach ..

And when Stephen died, it was not said that he rose to heaven, but instead it was said :

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Just a few more :

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

#2 :

If we are rewarded at His coming, then the soul which is RESURRECTED that SAME DAY (2nd coming) was that very same soul which was PREVIOUSLY at "sleep" PRIOR that DAY ..

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then  he shall reward every man according to his works.

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Jesus rose from the grave in the same body in which he died: the body was gone from the tomb. So also does scripture teach about our dead bodies. For example:

Job 19:26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God...

Luke 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

This is His TRUE FORM which is Spirit :

Revelation 1:13-16

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

That is NOT His human body .. imagine if Christ showed Himself to them in His Spirit form .. they barely contained themselves from fleeing as it was thinking they saw a ghost until He spoke to them .. if they saw His Spirit form, they would not have a clue who it was they were looking at and would have fled in every direction .. or .. plain dropped dead of fright.

Remember, flesh & blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven ..

 

Serving.

 

[Serving]

26 minutes ago, Serving said:

#1 :

Ah, but if we were all "guilty by association" .. then none of us would be right. Just because the 7th dayers might have ONE point in agreeance with mine, does not mean we'd agree on every point within that SAME subject .. "association" does not mean total agreement, just shared POINTS of commonality within a whole.

Nevertheless it was Jesus who taught "sleep" initially .. so even the 7th dayers got it from somewhere .. notice Jesus was even laughed at for saying it, for they did not understand His meaning.

Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Clearly she was dead .. but Jesus termed it as "sleepeth" .. clearly He wasn't speaking of her DEAD FLESH .. but of her spirit .. again, this relates to our souls being PRESERVED in a state of unconsciousness .. for "the dead know nothing".

Christ also said Lazarus sleepeth too ..

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

There is a pattern from Christ Himself and NOT originally from the 7th Dayers .. I have no clue what they teach ..

And when Stephen died, it was not said that he rose to heaven, but instead it was said :

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Just a few more :

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

#2 :

If we are rewarded at His coming, then the soul which is RESURRECTED that SAME DAY (2nd coming) was that very same soul which was PREVIOUSLY at "sleep" PRIOR that DAY ..

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then  he shall reward every man according to his works.

This is His TRUE FORM which is Spirit :

Revelation 1:13-16

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

That is NOT His human body .. imagine if Christ showed Himself to them in His Spirit form .. they barely contained themselves from fleeing as it was thinking they saw a ghost until He spoke to them .. if they saw His Spirit form, they would not have a clue who it was they were looking at and would have fled in every direction .. or .. plain dropped dead of fright.

Remember, flesh & blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven ..

 

Serving.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention doubting Thomas .. remember he said he would NOT BELIEVE .. UNLESS .. unless he put his fingers in Christ's very wounds?

Would Thomas had believed if he saw Christ's true form? Or fled in absolute terror? Or died of fright even ..

If Christ showed Himself as Spirit, He would have no wounds for Thomas to prod .. nor even be RECOGNISED by Thomas and the others.

Serving.

 

[Serving]

CONTINUED >>

PS .. please don't take any of this as an attack, nobody really answers big posts, so I thought just this once .. why not.

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There are two different ways in which the Lord brings us from death into life. Every person who dies is brought to life in the spiritual world, either in heaven like Lazarus or in hell like the rich man. Our body dies but our spirit lives on in the next life.

Already addressed

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There's another way in which the Lord brings us from death into life: he brings us out of evil, which is spiritual death, and gives us heavenly life.

I take it you meant metaphorical physical death (dead to the lusts of the flesh)  instead of spiritual death .. typo?

 

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Many passages in the Bible that speak of resurrection are referring to the second kind of resurrection, which is coming from an evil state into a good one (see Romans 6:4; Ephesians 2:1, 5-6; Colossians 2:12; 3:1). So for example, we read, "He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies" (Romans 8:11). Taken out of context, this might seem like a reference to physical resurrection. But the context shows that is referring to giving us spiritual life while we are still alive on this earth, for the passage says, " If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness…. If you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:10, 13). Sometimes a misunderstanding of the Bible arises from confusing these two kinds of resurrection.

Without nit picking, I understand your overall meaning and have no problem with that .. agreed.

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For example, Ezekiel had a vision of dry bones that were brought together, had flesh put on them and were brought to life. Some people have taken this as a description of how our bodies will be reassembled at the time of resurrection. But in fact, the dry bones that appeared in that vision were not dead people.

They would be wrong too then .. because this is the gathering of the reserved of Israel form every generation .. the "good figs" .. to whom the PROMISES were made concerning the restoration of THEIR physical kingdom .. that group was not taken up in the resurrection of the saints of whom were changed to spirit, no, these are the human ministers who will preach to the HEATHEN during the millennium .. and the saints will be THEIR (flesh Israel's) Priests.

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Rather, the Lord said to Ezekiel that these bones represented the people of Israel, who felt like "dry bones" because they were in captivity (Ezekiel 37:11).

By dry bones He means OLD, dead, lifeless.

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The Lord bringing the bones of out of their graves was a symbol of His promise to bring the people of Israel back from their captivity into their own land. It was not a prophecy of a physical resurrection.

Something similar is meant by Isaiah's prophecy, "Shake yourself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem" (Isaiah 52: 2), and Daniel's words: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2; compare 1 Kings 16:2). Paul says, "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light" (Ephesians 5: 14). This does not refer to people who are physically dead and a physical resurrection, but to those who are spiritually dead and their regeneration.

Already addressed

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The Bible says that Jesus was the "first born from the dead" (Romans 8:18). Some people have taken this to mean that no one was ever raised from the dead before Jesus was. This would imply that all who died prior to Jesus remained asleep in the ground at least until after His resurrection. But this is a distortion of that teaching. Often being "first" does not mean first in time, but first in importance, as when Jesus speaks of the first commandment (Mark 12:29; Matthew 22:38), and when He says that "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (Mark 9:35; 10:31, Matthew 19:30; 20:16) Jesus is not only said to be the first born from the dead, but also the first born of every creature (Romans 8:15). He is said to be first born because he existed from eternity and created all things, and because he is pre-eminent among all that have been raised from the dead (Romans 8: 16-18; compare John 1:1-9). When Jesus was about to be raised from the dead, He prayed, "And now, O Father, glorify Me with Your own self with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58), so there was no need for Abraham to wait in the grave for centuries to be raised to life, and Jesus could be first among the dead even though others had died and were raised before Him.

"First born from the dead" INTO SPIRIT is the meaning .. for "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God".

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There are many stories of people who were raised from the dead by Jesus and the prophets before him (Luke 7:11-16; 8:41-56; Matthew 9:18-26; Mark 5:22-43; John 11:1-54; 1 Kings 17:17-23; 2 Kings 4:32-37; 13: 21; Acts 9:37-40; 20:9-12). When Jesus worked the miracle of raising someone from the dead, the person's physical body came back to life. Some people have assumed from this that all resurrection will involve the physical body coming back to life. This assumption is unwarranted. When those who died were brought back to life in the physical body, the physical body was never made immortal or incorruptible. All of those people soon left their physical bodies in the grave once more.

Just replace "resurrect" with "raised" using both as their own categories and problem solved.

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Furthermore, in every case those who were brought back to life were resurrected within a few days of having died. We are never given an example of someone being brought back to life after thousands of years of sleep in grave. If Jesus had wanted us to think that resurrection happens after thousands of years in the grave, He could have raised Abraham or David from the dead. Instead, He raised people who had just died, to show that resurrection takes place soon after death, and the life of the soul continues even when the life of the body ends.

He made another mistake there brother ..

None in Christ had been martyred until AFTER Stephen remember? .. yet backtrack a little to crucifixion itself when Christ died, and you will see this :

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Which OT saints? The recently deceased who died BEFORE Christ began His Ministry since they showed themselves unto MANY, meaning wouldn't MANY need to RECOGNIZE them as being previously dead?

Or recognized as in still in their burial cloths?

It raises some interesting questions nevertheless don't you agree?

 

TO BE CONTINUED >>

 

 

[Serving]

CONTINUED >>

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What about Jesus' Body?

 

Jesus' resurrection shows the pattern which ours will follow, yet there must also be a difference. Some have thought that we will rise with our physical bodies because Jesus rose with His. But if leaving behind the physical body makes us different from Christ, staying in the grave for centuries would make our resurrection even less like His. Jesus repeatedly told His disciples that He would rise on the third day (Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:63; Luke 9:22; 18:33; 24:7; 24:46; Mark 8:31), and Scripture also shows that what is true of Him in this case will also be true of us. "After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight" (Hosea 6:2). "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). At the same time, Jesus taught that for the rest of us the spirit would rise without the body when He said, "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39).

 

The Graves Opened and the Dead Appearing

 

After Jesus rose from the tomb, the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matthew 27:52-53). This passage is not explicit. Were their physical bodies raised, or their spiritual bodies? How long had they been "sleeping"--centuries, or just a few days? What happened to those saints afterwards? Where are they now? Does the holy city mean the Jerusalem in this world, or the new Jerusalem in heaven (Revelation 21:2; 22:19)? This passage clearly shows that the Lord's resurrection brings resurrection to others, but it does not give us any reason to expect centuries of sleep before our resurrection.

Already addressed.

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Eternal Life Has Begun

 

Eternal life is not something that is waiting for us in the distant future. There is no reason to think that we have to wait for a long time, for Jesus tells us that for those who accept the life He gives, the kingdom of heaven is already within them (Luke 17:21), and they have already begun living eternally (John 5:24, 17:2, 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20). That life is not interrupted by death, but rather becomes more abundant and complete.

Disagreed .. when one has entered eternal life, one "put's on immortality" remember? .. no insult intended, but the information above contradicts previous statements.

Anyways ..

That took me HOURS .. no wonder people very rarely answer BIG posts .. LOL .. look how many posts it took me to address the points .. having said that, I kind of still enjoyed it .. but I don't think I'll do it again.

Serving.

[Serving]

38 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

There's so much very strange in the thread/ last posts...

LOL .. I was answering things that were strange to me too .. but if you mean MY answers were strange, just ask for scriptures or reasons and I'll gladly answer .. but I didn't answer that HUGE amount of information to really debate every point, but just to show a counter argument.

Serving.