ARGOSY Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted February 13, 2016 8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them. Antiochus rapidly expanded his kingdom eastwards and to the south. The ships of Rome (Kittim... the western coastlands) however stopped that expansion, with the famous "circle in the sand" story which forced Antiochus to retreat from Egypt after during his second succesful war against Egypt. So he was greater than the four horns that preceded him. The host of heaven and the stars symbolically represent Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2016 I understand how the trampling of the stars to the ground, refers to Satan and his ambitions on earth to destroy Zion, which can be applied to any person or power which does the same, including Antiochus. And I see the point of just Persia and Greece being named here. But I thought this was also the case in Daniel 2, where none of the following kingdoms since Babylon are named, except the Lord's kingdom. It's easy to see the parallels of the beasts in Daniel 7 with the image in Daniel 2, and apparently also the same parallels in Daniel 8? Experimentally, from all three visions, we can safely name Babylon, because the Lord declared "thou art the head of gold" to King Nebuchadnezzar, then we have the ram with the two horns, like the bear with one raised shoulder, as the Medes followed by the Persians, then we have Greece, splitting into four provinces, like the four wings of the leopard. But then following that, it does not name Rome. Maybe we are supposed to fill in that gap by all the other clues about it. Rome is not mentioned in Daniel. But if we take the 11th chapter as more detail of the previous visions and on the same foundation of successive world movements, we find a lot of clues which describe the exact history of Rome. So although Rome is not named, the devil is in the detail. What is more the accumulative application of all the clues in all the visions of Daniel, clearly identifies the kingdoms in each vision. I recognize that some people disagree with that approach, but I did to see if it is true, and has worked so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, ARGOSY said: 8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them. Antiochus rapidly expanded his kingdom eastwards and to the south. The ships of Rome (Kittim... the western coastlands) however stopped that expansion, with the famous "circle in the sand" story which forced Antiochus to retreat from Egypt after during his second succesful war against Egypt. So he was greater than the four horns that preceded him. The host of heaven and the stars symbolically represent Jews. But he had to be greater than Persia and Greece, not just the four horns, see verses 4, 8 and 9? "Great" - Persia "very great"- Greece, and "exceedingly great" that could only be the fourth beast, Rome, in Daniel 7 don't you think? That would be consistent with the rest of Daniel and all the visions. But the proof of this lies largely in the time line of the 2300 days. In chapter 9 the angel explains how this time period is applied, and it starts with the command to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem coming into effect, (in the days of Ezra, as recorded in the Bible). So the Bible authorizes how it is applied, we don't need external sources for this one. That command marks the beginning of a 490 year period for the Jewish nation to get their act together and welcome the messiah, but instead they used Him and killed Him. All these time frames also tie in with the time of the crucifixion of Christ. So these vision times are not days, but years. If calculated in years, then they work, otherwise not. There is nothing in the Bible about Antiochus with these times, because they are not literal days, but vision time. The Jews are strong on this point, because the prophecies in Daniel predict when they cease to be called the nation of God, and the destruction of Jerusalem as Jesus taught, not to mention the rejection of the Messiah. So, no wonder they want to play on Antiochus. In fact, the Jews have declared a very nasty curse on anyone who studies the prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9. Because it proves that Jesus was the Messiah, and that they as a nation screwed up. The very fact that Jesus could predict the destruction of Jerusalem from these prophecies, proves that they do not finish shortly in ancient times, but that vision time covers many years and not just days. The interpretation of visions and dreams like Joseph the son of Jacob, shows that time is translated from years into days in vision time. So when interpreting such, a day equals a year. The command to rebuild Jerusalem went to effect in 457 BC, from that time the Jews were given 490 years of grace. In the last week of years, 7 years, the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of that week, causing the sacrificial system to end. All the other time spans tie in with this. All the time frames in Daniel, including chapter 12, fit into the 2300 day vision, which is 2300 years. Five time spans tie in the beginning of the 2300, and three tie in the end of the 2300. Nine time spans in all, setting the whole thing in concrete, and fitting exactly with history, and the rest of the Bible. The reign of the Papacy for 1260 years is mentioned twice in Daniel and a few times in Revelation. This also ties in with the three time lines of the end of the 2300, as given in Daniel 12. Here it is - 1. 457 AD the command to rebuild, the beginning of the 2300 years. Persia. 2. 490 years of grace (70 weeks of years) to 34 AD (the stoning of Steven, the Gospel goes to gentiles by Paul's ministry. and the times of the gentiles begins). 3. 483 years until the appearing of Messiah (69 weeks of years) 27 AD 4. 49 years of rebuilding the walls in troubled times (7 weeks of years) 408 BC 5. 434 years till the Messiah from the rebuilding of walls. (62 weeks of years) 6. 3.5 years to the crucifixion, Messiah cut off in the middle of the last week (7 years) 31 AD. Israel under Rome. 7. 1290 years from the setup of the abomination to its end. 508 AD to 1798 AD. Papal Rome. 8. 1260 years of reign of the abomination 538 AD to 1798 AD (also a time, times and the dividing of time or 3 1/2 years) Papal Rome. 9. 1335 years from the set up of the abomination to the end of the 2300 years. 22nd October 1843 to 1844. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted February 13, 2016 46 minutes ago, Kan said: But he had to be greater than Persia and Greece, not just the four horns, see verses 4, 8 and 9? "Great" - Persia "very great"- Greece, and "exceedingly great" that could only be the fourth beast, Rome, in Daniel 7 don't you think? That would be consistent with the rest of Daniel and all the visions. But the proof of this lies largely in the time line of the 2300 days. In chapter 9 the angel explains how this time period is applied, and it starts with the command to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem coming into effect, (in the days of Ezra, as recorded in the Bible). So the Bible authorizes how it is applied, we don't need external sources for this one. That command marks the beginning of a 490 year period for the Jewish nation to get their act together and welcome the messiah, but instead they used Him and killed Him. All these time frames also tie in with the time of the crucifixion of Christ. So these vision times are not days, but years. If calculated in years, then they work, otherwise not. There is nothing in the Bible about Antiochus with these times, because they are not literal days, but vision time. The Jews are strong on this point, because the prophecies in Daniel predict when they cease to be called the nation of God, and the destruction of Jerusalem as Jesus taught, not to mention the rejection of the Messiah. So, no wonder they want to play on Antiochus. In fact, the Jews have declared a very nasty curse on anyone who studies the prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9. Because it proves that Jesus was the Messiah, and that they as a nation screwed up. The very fact that Jesus could predict the destruction of Jerusalem from these prophecies, proves that they do not finish shortly in ancient times, but that vision time covers many years and not just days. The interpretation of visions and dreams like Joseph the son of Jacob, shows that time is translated from years into days in vision time. So when interpreting such, a day equals a year. The command to rebuild Jerusalem went to effect in 457 BC, from that time the Jews were given 490 years of grace. In the last week of years, 7 years, the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of that week, causing the sacrificial system to end. All the other time spans tie in with this. All the time frames in Daniel, including chapter 12, fit into the 2300 day vision, which is 2300 years. Five time spans tie in the beginning of the 2300, and three tie in the end of the 2300. Nine time spans in all, setting the whole thing in concrete, and fitting exactly with history, and the rest of the Bible. The reign of the Papacy for 1260 years is mentioned twice in Daniel and a few times in Revelation. This also ties in with the three time lines of the end of the 2300, as given in Daniel 12. Here it is - 1. 457 AD the command to rebuild, the beginning of the 2300 years. Persia. 2. 490 years of grace (70 weeks of years) to 34 AD (the stoning of Steven, the Gospel goes to gentiles by Paul's ministry. and the times of the gentiles begins). 3. 483 years until the appearing of Messiah (69 weeks of years) 27 AD 4. 49 years of rebuilding the walls in troubled times (7 weeks of years) 408 BC 5. 434 years till the Messiah from the rebuilding of walls. (62 weeks of years) 6. 3.5 years to the crucifixion, Messiah cut off in the middle of the last week (7 years) 31 AD. Israel under Rome. 7. 1290 years from the setup of the abomination to its end. 508 AD to 1798 AD. Papal Rome. 8. 1260 years of reign of the abomination 538 AD to 1798 AD (also a time, times and the dividing of time or 3 1/2 years) Papal Rome. 9. 1335 years from the set up of the abomination to the end of the 2300 years. 22nd October 1843 to 1844. 8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land. I see this as exceedingly greater than the other 3 horns of Greece. We have to remain consistent with the symbols, and an animal represents a kingdom/empire. A horn represents a division/king within that empire. So this is all about Greece. If Rome was in view, we would have ANOTHER animal after the goat, as with the 4 part leopard in Daniel 7 followed by the great beast of Daniel 7. Instead this little horn comes from the four part kingdom that relates to the leopard in Daniel 7. The focus on Daniel 7 was another later little horn, the antichrist, besides who Antiochus becomes insignificant. So the other less significant little horn is not mentioned in Daniel 7. But now that Antiochus is clearly mentioned in a context which contrasts with Daniel 7, suddenly history gives the church huge clues as to the nature of the future antichrist, because we can see the nature of his forerunner from Greece, as described in Daniel 8. He's from Syria. He manipulates the Jews into fitting in with the surrounding culture which was Hellenistic at the time. (Now its Islamic). He desecrates the temple. He accepts and commands worship. The future little horn will do much of the same. Although I do respect the knowledge of the SDA's, I do not agree with their historicist views, seeing days as representing years. I think this dilutes both the 1150 days of Antiochus, and the 3.5 years of the future great tribulation, mentioned many times in Daniel and Revelation and by reference in Matthew 24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted February 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Kan said: I understand how the trampling of the stars to the ground, refers to Satan and his ambitions on earth to destroy Zion, which can be applied to any person or power which does the same, including Antiochus. And I see the point of just Persia and Greece being named here. But I thought this was also the case in Daniel 2, where none of the following kingdoms since Babylon are named, except the Lord's kingdom. It's easy to see the parallels of the beasts in Daniel 7 with the image in Daniel 2, and apparently also the same parallels in Daniel 8? Experimentally, from all three visions, we can safely name Babylon, because the Lord declared "thou art the head of gold" to King Nebuchadnezzar, then we have the ram with the two horns, like the bear with one raised shoulder, as the Medes followed by the Persians, then we have Greece, splitting into four provinces, like the four wings of the leopard. But then following that, it does not name Rome. Maybe we are supposed to fill in that gap by all the other clues about it. Rome is not mentioned in Daniel. But if we take the 11th chapter as more detail of the previous visions and on the same foundation of successive world movements, we find a lot of clues which describe the exact history of Rome. So although Rome is not named, the devil is in the detail. What is more the accumulative application of all the clues in all the visions of Daniel, clearly identifies the kingdoms in each vision. I recognize that some people disagree with that approach, but I did to see if it is true, and has worked so far. Yes there are parallels: Dan 2 Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (ten toes = Rome's new capital) Dan 7 Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (little horn = Romes new capital) Dan 8 Persia, Greece Dan 11 1-35 Greece Dan 11 36-45 Future antichrist (Rome's new capital) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 14, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2016 8 hours ago, ARGOSY said: 8I see this as exceedingly greater than the other 3 horns of Greece. We have to remain consistent with the symbols, and an animal represents a kingdom/empire. A horn represents a division/king within that empire. So this is all about Greece. If Rome was in view, we would have ANOTHER animal after the goat, as with the 4 part leopard in Daniel 7 followed by the great beast of Daniel 7... Instead this little horn comes from the four part kingdom that relates to the leopard in Daniel 7. The focus on Daniel 7 was another later little horn, the antichrist, besides who Antiochus becomes insignificant. So the other less significant little horn is not mentioned in Daniel 7. But now that Antiochus is clearly mentioned in a context which contrasts with Daniel 7, suddenly history gives the church huge clues as to the nature of the future antichrist, because we can see the nature of his forerunner from Greece, as described in Daniel 8. He's from Syria. He manipulates the Jews into fitting in with the surrounding culture which was Hellenistic at the time. (Now its Islamic). He desecrates the temple. He accepts and commands worship. The future little horn will do much of the same... I have not understood how you make your observations on this topic, but you have explained it well, and I can see the application now. It makes sense, about the lack of another beast in Daniel 8. I have wondered about that too. Going back to the verses 4, 8 and 9, with the descriptions "great" "very great" and "exceeding great," can you see that these are not talking about the four previous horns on the goat, but about the Ram, and the first horn on the goat? So is the comparison supposed to be with the two previous world empires? I think yes. I see a lot of similarities with the fourth beast and its horns in Daniel 7 and the little horn of Daniel 8. They both persecute the saints, stand up against Christ, and we note that it casts some of the stars to the ground. While that may apply to the people of God on earth, it rings with Revelation 12: 4, and we know from this language that they are both talking about Satan as the power behind persecuting kingdoms. If we say that the little horn power became Rome and Papal Rome, it is consistent with the great theme of world empires in Daniel, as well as in Revelation. I think the proof lies within the time frame of the 2300 days/years which includes the death of Christ and the reign of the blasphemous horn of Daniel 7 (and 8 if so). The two chapters 7 and 8, are about a war against Christ and the saints through an earthly empire, and it includes the 1260 year period, just like in several places in Revelation. In Daniel 12:5 the same inquiry is made about the reign of the abomination, and the answer is again - 1260 days (time, times and half a time) - once again the Papal reign. This question is first addressed in Daniel 8:13. But the answer was already given in Daniel 7:25. The 2300 year period is the measuring line for all of the prophecies in both Daniel and Revelation. It has to do with the sanctuary in heaven and the work of Christ there for the world, which Satan hates and has been trying to obscure for millenniums. The time lines in Daniel do not work if applied in non vision time, and I have not yet found any support from scripture itself, that proves Antiochus is in question. However, I found that the book of Ezra establishes the time and circumstances of the beginning of the 2300 prophecy, which is the command to rebuild Jerusalem "going forth" or coming into effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 14, 2016 On February 8, 2016 at 9:53 AM, WilliamL said: I would not count on either of these things, Spock. Keep an open mind about them, or you many get caught looking past the mark. William, you don't see the abomination of desolation with the antichrist defaming the rebuilt temple? Say what? Even Jesus said in Matthew 24:15, "when you see the abomination.......RUN!!!!!!!!" please explain William. (Is this an early April fools joke?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 14, 2016 18 hours ago, ARGOSY said: To ALL Daniel 8 is not about the the antichrist. Daniel 8 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, a huge enemy of Israel and the first to introduce large scale slaughter for religious reasons into earth. He is a precursor to the antichrist because Antiochus Epiphanes managed to split the Jewish people into those who served popular Greek culture and those who remained faithful to Judaism. He received worship by placing a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple that was designed according to his own features. He gets so much prominence in the bible because he was an outsider (from Syria) and yet managed to split Jews along religious lines and desecrated the temple for 1150 days. Sacrifices were known as the "evening and morning", two a day. Thus the sacrifices were stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings. The bible describes this man as such: Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. History shows that Alexander the Great was the first king of Greece, his kingdom was split into 4 upon his death. Antiochus was a fierce king from one of the four Greek kingdoms, the Syrian (Seleucid) portion of the Greek Empire. He desecrated the temple for 2300 mornings and evenings. Regarding the "time of the end", yes Antiochus is a precursor to the antichrist, there are similarities. Other than that, the reference is merely referring to the fact that the desecration has an appointed end moment, after 2300 mornings and evenings. Brother Argosy, i don't know about this one. three times God reminded us this "takes place in the time of the END..." To me, the end is the last 7 years, Daniels 70th week, the time just before Christ's return. And then you have this from Daniel 8: "...a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power." i might say, okay, maybe it is all about Antiochus until I reach the middle of verse 25: "and take his stand against the Prince of princes." Is this not Jesus? If not, who is it? "Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power." What does this mean to you? Was Antiochus destroyed by non human power? Lay it on me bro. spock being patient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 14, 2016 One more thing brother Argosy, what proof do you have Antiochus stopped sacrifices for precisely 1150 days? Thanks. spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 14, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2016 11 minutes ago, Spock said: One more thing brother Argosy, what proof do you have Antiochus stopped sacrifices for precisely 1150 days? Thanks. spock For me too please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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