Daniel 8

[Kan]

11 hours ago, James Bejon said:

Hi Kan.  I’m not 100% sure what you’re saying here.  Are you saying the 21st cent. AD could plausibly be considered to be ‘the end of the rule/kingdom’ of people like Seleucus and Ptolemy?  If so, that strikes me as quite a stretch.

The first paragraph of the post you quoted of me, says that the four provinces of Greece ended in ancient times, but the little horn which came out of one of those provinces, continues for a long time. 

If we understand this power to to be the same one associated with the fourth kingdom of the beasts, and its little horn which blasphemes God, then we know it is not a small matter, but one, as Revelation 12 puts it, involving the assault of Satan against Christ and His people, through earthly kingdoms. In this case the fourth beast - Rome, following Greece, becoming a very great world empire, crumbling into ten kingdoms of Europe, and then undergoing another phase of religious rule through the Papacy, which dominated for well over a thousand years.

It is amazing how many people ignore this "exceeding great" kingdom as Daniel puts it, and fall for the Antiochus Epiphanies decoy by the Jesuits.

The time lines in Daniel show that the 1260 years of Papal rule come to an end. just before the 2300 years terminate.

After the angel comforts Daniel over the issue of the Jews in captivity, he is now aware that the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple is not the whole matter, but that the cleansing of the sanctuary refers to the temple in heaven where Christ officiates, and that His ministry will close for the world.

While the Papacy lost its political position, the Bible makes it clear in Revelation 13, that its wound would be healed, and that it would be worshiped by the world once again.

Today the Papacy is in power again, and she is ready to inflict her mark on the world, which the saints will not accept. But this time the Lord returns from heaven and ends the whore and the debased kingdoms of this world who do her bidding.

We note that in Revelation 12, the power on earth that is imbibed by Satan, is pagan Rome, which also persecutes the saints as a religious power - the so called Christian church, reigning for a time, times and half a time, or 3 1/2 times which is 1260 days in vision time, or 1260 literal years.

At the time of Christ, the whole point of Rome and its census and taxes, was to be in control of the masses, in order to be in control of the Messiah. Satan needed a lot of power, because he thought that Christ may succeed in overcoming the world by an earthly kingdom through Israel. So by conquering the world through Rome, he hoped to meet the challenge.

But Jesus did not overcome him through earthly powers. John says that Jesus went back to heaven, having defeated the enemy.

So having lost that battle, after 4000 years of planning, the devil takes out his rage on the inhabitants of the world, but especially the saints, which he succeeded in doing through the Papacy - or his organization on earth.

But the saints loved not their lives unto death, and by this they overcome Satan, and will receive eternal life when Christ resurrects them. This scenario will repeat itself with the mark of the beast, with the exception that the saints will remain alive until Christ returns.

Then the agencies of Satan on earth are utterly destroyed, as John tells the details.

[James Bejon]

4 minutes ago, Kan said:

The first paragraph of the post you quoted of me, says that the four provinces of Greece ended in ancient times, but the little horn which came out of one of those provinces, continues for a long time. 

If we understand this power to to be the same one associated with the fourth kingdom of the beasts, and its little horn which blasphemes God,

Thanks for the reply, Kan.  Your "if", however, strikes me as a very big one.  Ch. 8' horn, we are told, arises from Greece.  Ch. 7's doesn't.  It arises from the fourth kingdom.  That's stated explicitly in the text, which is our best guide to a correct interpretation.  Also, ch. 7's horn is one of eleven horns and overthrows three of its peers, while ch. 8's horn is one of five, and co-exists alongside its peers.  Plus, it reigns for 2,300 evenings and mornings rather than 'a time, times, and half a time'.  Once you look at the details, the two horns are really quite different.

[Kan]

1 hour ago, James Bejon said:

Thanks for the reply, Kan.  Your "if", however, strikes me as a very big one.  Ch. 8' horn, we are told, arises from Greece.  Ch. 7's doesn't.  It arises from the fourth kingdom.  That's stated explicitly in the text, which is our best guide to a correct interpretation.  Also, ch. 7's horn is one of eleven horns and overthrows three of its peers, while ch. 8's horn is one of five, and co-exists alongside its peers.  Plus, it reigns for 2,300 evenings and mornings rather than 'a time, times, and half a time'.  Once you look at the details, the two horns are really quite different.

That's right.

I interpret the little horn of Daniel 8 as Rome which became the persecuting power of the dark ages, which to me is the same power that arose out of the ten European nations, by overthrowing three.

One reason I hold to that is because of the placement of the 1260 years, as associated with the 2300 years of Daniel 8 and the prophecy in Daniel 7 about the time times and dividing of time = 1260 etc.

[James Bejon]

19 minutes ago, Kan said:

That's right.

I interpret the little horn of Daniel 8 as Rome which became the persecuting power of the dark ages, which to me is the same power that arose out of the ten European nations, by overthrowing three.

One reason I hold to that is because of the placement of the 1260 years, as associated with the 2300 years of Daniel 8 and the prophecy in Daniel 7 about the time times and dividing of time = 1260 etc.

Hmm...what do you take the fourth beast of ch. 7 to be then?

[Kan]

42 minutes ago, James Bejon said:

Hmm...what do you take the fourth beast of ch. 7 to be then?

!. Babylon, 2. Persia, 3. Greece, 4. Rome. Rome is the fourth beast. The division of Rome (into clay and iron as in the image chapter 2) which is equivalent to the ten horns on the fourth beast, and the one which comes up later is the Church of Rome politically/militarily supported by the remaining European kings.

While the kingdoms and kings come and go, the Papacy continues as the underlying agenda behind the world kingdoms, which according to Revelation 17, 18 have committed fornication with the old whore, pictured as sitting on a beast.

Chapter 8 runs as follows, the Ram, Persia, the Goat Greece, the first king, the four subsequent kingships, the little horn which arises out of one of those, - Rome, the reaching into heaven, and persecuting the saints, the Papacy.

According to Revelation 17, there are seven sequential rulerships, four and five are accounted for in Daniel. And Revelation picks up on the other two or three.

There are 8 altogether, see Rev 17, but the eighth is of the seven. 

1. Babylon

2. Persia

3. Greece

4. Rome

5. Papal Rome

6. America on the rise

7. The French revolution (see Rev 11) the beginning of Communism which goes world wide in the end through socialism. 

8. The last world empire (the scarlet or red beast)- socialist world turns 'Christian.' ("if possible to deceive the very elect") "The beast which was" (communist/athiest) "and is not" (Christian) "and yet is" (communist style religious enforcement through the mark of the beast)." The old whore rides this beast.

Then when the nations sober up, they will hate the whore which rides them, and destroy her with fire. Too late for nations to repent, they will be destroyed by the returning Lord of heaven. See Rev 17.

 

[James Bejon]

Sounds a bit weird to me.  Can Rome really be both a fourth beast which terrorises the whole world as well as a 'little horn' which arises from one of Greece's four sub-kingdoms?

[Kan]

23 hours ago, James Bejon said:

Sounds a bit weird to me.  Can Rome really be both a fourth beast which terrorises the whole world as well as a 'little horn' which arises from one of Greece's four sub-kingdoms?

Your question has answered it already, can this great power really be this little insignificant horn?

History shows that the great empires were taken over by massive and or swift military campaigns. Persia took Babylon by diverting its river and coming in via the gates which were partially under water. Greece took Persia after a few great battles, where Greece was out numbered by far. But Rome, did not take the existing empire by storm, but by stealth. It grew slowly, gaining small territories one battle at a time, and often with no battle, just a trade embargo, or a new road or wall to mark its influence and territory. It kept growing, and its battle tactics were becoming more sudden and ruthless. Villages were utterly destroyed, burned down, and anyone who tried to resist their advance was violently obliterated. No kingdom on earth took enough notice to stop this growth, but they all came under its power, and could not resist. 

Revelation 12, tells us that Satan had a rough idea when the Messiah would be born, and had to have world power on his side at the time. This is what Rome is, Satan's machine.

The Bible says the fourth beast stamped the residue under its feet. It crushed its enemies. But it does not end there, and the vision talks much about the little horn. So I think Daniel 8 is about this inquiry and not a separate issue.

But the Bible does not disconnect Papal Rome from Pagan Rome, but shows that the agenda of Satan was to create this religious monster. And so the Lord gave Daniel a vision of the goat and its horns, which demonstrates this fact. Note that the little horn is called "exceeding great" as compared to the first king of Greece who was "very great" and the Persian empire which was "great." Antiochus was hardly greater than Alexander, he was by comparison less than a kid playing in the street.

The book of Daniel was designed to educate the reader, beginning on the obvious and simple level. The dream of the image and the successive world empires, was not given to a prophet of the Lord, but the King of Babylon. It is fairly easy to follow. This dream is the pattern and foundation of the whole book, it sets the context and time frames for the rest of Daniel, which begin in his day and reach right until the establishment of Christ's kingdom.

So chapter 7, is a vision given to the prophet, to elaborate on the first vision that the King had. Chapter 8 is an explanation, again through visions, of the religious persecution. Chapter 9 gives the setting of the 2300 days, chapter 11 gives even more detail, on the understanding of the manner in which Satan continues working with politics and religion right, until the last world politically backed religion.

Each vision and explanation by the angel builds on the previous vision. It does not chop and change, or jump in time or topic.

The proper understanding of Daniel depends on a progressive acceptance of the issues at stake, and stories of Daniel's experiences are intermingled to illustrate how the devil works with the powers on earth to kill the saints if possible.

Note that Satan has a problem with the autonomy of a king, and throughout time he manages to remove this power and bring it down to a senate. In other words, if you are going to maintain corruption, it is more likely to succeed with the majority vote, seeing that the majority of men are corrupt.

But the ultimate goal of Satan is to be able to control the masses without any authority except himself and he succeeds in doing this on two major occasions, the French revolution and in the coming conflict through the red beast. So while people are preaching this and that Antichrist or political agenda, they do not realize that they themselves are being set up to do his bidding, and that the world will gang up on the saints in revolutionary style, differing from the French revolution by the fact that they are backed by the authorities.

This scenario unites the world, the people and its power, like never before, and it brings the conflict between good and evil to a full end, where the world is clearly divided into two distinct groups, no longer any sitting on the fence. This sharp division calls for an end to sin and sinners once and for all, there is no one to convert. Christ returns and utterly destroys the earth with fire, while the saints both the living and the resurrected are taken to heaven.

Daniel 8 has to be read as part of the whole book. 

[James Bejon]

Hi Kan.  I don’t necessary disagree with what you say, but I’m not sure it addresses my concerns.  Ch. 8’s horn arises from the midst of the third beast’s reign (Greece).  It is a part of the goat.  That’s not true of Rome.  (Rome wasn’t a part of Greece, and didn’t arise from it.)  Nor is true of Daniel’s fourth beast.  Daniel’s fourth beast is a distinct entity from Daniel’s third beast.  So when you say, “Daniel 8 has to be read as part of the whole book”, I fully agree.  But it’s precisely reading Dan. 8 as a part of the whole book that makes me doubt your suggestion.

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 2/14/2016 at 7:14 PM, Kan said:

I think the proof lies within the time frame of the 2300 days/years which includes the death of Christ and the reign of the blasphemous horn of Daniel 7 (and 8 if so).

Me too.

The 2300 years totally leapfrogs the prophetic time period occupied by the little horn of Daniel 7. When the holy one spoke to another and asked: “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”, he in a round about way was saying that there wouldn't even be a chance we'd see the end time Antichrist or the appointed time of the end until sometime after 1844.

I don't think that they wanted the Apostles to figure this out. It would have broken Paul's heart to find out that the Lord wasn't coming back for 2000 years. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Dave Watchman
I can.t spell even with a spell checker?

[Kan]

On 2/20/2016 at 8:55 AM, James Bejon said:

Hi Kan.  I don’t necessary disagree with what you say, but I’m not sure it addresses my concerns.  Ch. 8’s horn arises from the midst of the third beast’s reign (Greece).  It is a part of the goat.  That’s not true of Rome.  (Rome wasn’t a part of Greece, and didn’t arise from it.)  Nor is true of Daniel’s fourth beast.  Daniel’s fourth beast is a distinct entity from Daniel’s third beast.  So when you say, “Daniel 8 has to be read as part of the whole book”, I fully agree.  But it’s precisely reading Dan. 8 as a part of the whole book that makes me doubt your suggestion.

 

I get where you are coming from, because I used to think the same, until figured that the whole point of Daniel 8 is to explain the conflict on earth from a spiritual point of view, and especially concerning the sanctuary. If that sanctuary is the one Daniel was praying for - Jerusalem, then we will find ourselves perplexed as he was about the vision, until the angel was able to tell him that the whole thing was much bigger than that.

The rest of what I write is long winded and is basically the same thing, but read on if you feel like it.

The conclusions we make about the prophecies, also depend on whether we have accepted that one day in vision time equals one year or not. It's one of those things that can be tested.

In regards to the contexts of this chapter, Daniel 2 is easy - everybody can understand it, but each following vision in the book gets more complex, and the book finishes with the longest recorded speech of an angel, in the 11th chapter. It progresses from the human standpoint and ends with an angel's point of view, or the warfare of Satan on earth against the cause of Christ. (By the way, Revelation is the other way around, it begins with the spiritual aspects of the conflict, and ends with the physical.)

It's very difficult to understand what the angel is talking about, "the king of the north" "and south," the "do according to his will" thing etc. Although we can attribute specific characters of history to these descriptions, they are not primarily about identifying a historical figure, but identifying the means by which Satan screws with the world, so it is about attitudes and influences, and so we have to look for historical matches by these. Even though there are plenty of physical clues about individuals, such as "a raiser of taxes," which we all know.

So while many seek to apply a political or religious figure to Daniel 8, it is talking about the power of the horn, how it is related to Satan's rebellion in heaven, and his agendas with the worldly powers. The principles involved are not local or temporal, but spiritual, and therefor we expect the contest to last until the end. This is the background for Daniel 8, an answer to Daniel's inquiry about the little horn power and the persecution of the saints and degradation of the role of Christ's kingdom, and of course the sanctuary by which the world is under grace.

When we figure out the prime concern of the vision, it is easier to unlock. Central to Daniel 8 is the question of the sanctuary. Depending on our understanding of what that means, will determine how we see the whole chapter. Is it talking about Jerusalem or heaven?

Daniel was already concerned about the fourth beast, and found it unbearable to think that thousands of years would pass, even centuries of spiritual darkness by the little horn. I believe it was important for Daniel to know the positive side of this future, and so the angel asks the question for Daniel - who was left speechless, "How long will these things go on for?" and the answer is given in the following verses.

The sanctuary is where a judgement takes place, which we read at the end of Daniel 7.

The same themes are picked up again in Daniel 8, and by the way, in Revelation also, which goes into more detail of the last 1900 years. So you will find sanctuary language and symbols use in Revelation, which are all clues about timing and events. Things like - the 7 golden candle sticks, the altar of incense, the alter (of burnt offering), the ark of the covenant or testimony, smoke rising with incense, the courtyard, the temple, and so on. All these are Divinely placed to open up all the proof of only one conclusion, that Christ is victorious as a High priest through the sanctuary in heaven for those on earth who follow Him by faith.

If this is the case then, the book of Daniel shows when this service in heaven begins, and changes, and finally concludes.

But if it is just a local matter, Daniel would not have been perplexed and distressed over the whole matter, after all was he not capable of being a Prince second to the King, over seventy provinces?