Why Lutherans Do Not Believe in the Rapture

[simplejeff]

Good won't prevail over the world UNTIL YESHUA RETURNS.

And you can't blame true Christians for it - there's so few, and they are oppressed and persecuted same as ever since Jesus walked on earth.

Oh,  "christians" will certainly face judgment.... for their own lives.

The world, Yahweh Judges.

The ekklesia, do what Yahweh says.  Yeshua's sheep hear His voice.  The world doesn't, yet.

[junobet]

13 minutes ago, Ezra said:

So should we treat this passage as fictitious? (Rev 20: 4-6).

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

 

As I understand it the Saints and martyrs live right now and reign with Christ, all others will sleep till judgement day. Mind you: time gets probably very relative when you are dead.

Edited February 3, 2016 by junobet

[junobet]

7 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Good won't prevail over the world UNTIL YESHUA RETURNS.

And you can't blame true Christians for it - there's so few, and they are oppressed and persecuted same as ever since Jesus walked on earth.

Oh,  "christians" will certainly face judgment.... for their own lives.

The world, Yahweh Judges.

The ekklesia, do what Yahweh says.  Yeshua's sheep hear His voice.  The world doesn't, yet.

You’re a bit prone to Manichaean heresy here, aren’t you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

The world, God’s creation, is not bad: “Now God saw all that he had made, and indeed, it was very good!” (Gen. 1:31)

Faith, Love, Hope, brother!

[simplejeff]

Read the Bible and see.   The world is pernicious.  Society is evil.   and getting much much worse daily.

Like Davida says: the Bible is whole and literal.  ((but you don't have to accept it)).

On February 2, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Davida said:

.....I came to two understandings , one that the spiritual battle is real and literal and  I came to the conclusion that if you want to understand the manual God left us , to lead and guide us , the living manual (Bible) that is the whole picture of what God revealed & gave us and that predicted HIS birth & what the Lord Jesus has accomplished at Calvary and what will happen towards the end of this age, His return to rapture the Church, and what HE IS going to do to redeem a remnant of Israel for HIM, when He returns with the saints-- you have to accept the Bible as whole and literal. 

 

[SINNERSAVED]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 6:28 AM, Davida said:

If you meant my post Junobet, you might have misunderstood the intent of my words. Being raised an Anglican, sitting in Church I realized the big gap between what was in the Bible and what that denomination was telling me God was saying. When I began reading the Bible apart from Church and praying with real fervency that the Lord God let me know the Truth =to make a long story short- I did leave the Anglican Church realizing that I was never being fed with the whole Word of God nor was I taught by ministers who had a true understanding of the Bible.  I saw these were men who just picked it apart & separated out only parts they focused upon and ignored other parts. Or, they taught that some was not to be believed and was just allegory and they did teach replacement theology which makes NO sense whatsoever and contradicts the Bible. 

I came to two understandings , one that the spiritual battle is real and literal and  I came to the conclusion that if you want to understand the manual God left us , to lead and guide us , the living manual (Bible) that is the whole picture of what God revealed & gave us and that predicted HIS birth & what the Lord Jesus has accomplished at Calvary and what will happen towards the end of this age, His return to rapture the Church, and what HE IS going to do to redeem a remnant of Israel for HIM, when He returns with the saints-- you have to accept the Bible as whole and literal. 

amen ..that is true

[SINNERSAVED]

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

You got it all wrong , I had no "teachers" , I praying & was reading the Bible and realized the contradiction between what was being taught and what was written in the scripture.  I realized the teaching was wrong, & that we are not to change what was intended in scripture or interpret the message of the Bible for modern times. The Holy Spirit lead me to leave that denomination seeking for a Church that only taught from scripture and had no adornments and man made rituals. I call no man reverend  nor master , lord or rabbi, or priest-- but my Savior JESUS CHRIST is Lord, Master, heavenly High Priest.  The bible says God's name is holy and reverend.

Psalm111:9  He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend is His name."

Junobet said: "Taking the Bible 100% literally you’d just enjoy Revelation’s literal horror-film-features such as seven headed beasts with ten horns, dragons, locusts with human faces (…) + you’d end up believing that the earth actually stands on pillars and has 4 corners ."
As for your quote above, is that a serious view? Is that what you think we who take the Bible "literally" or as fundamental truth are mean and you used the adjective 'endtimes crazed rapture ready Christians"? It is quite insulting and misguided the way you portray those that choose to follow the Bible as the literal word of God. Because it is the world that teaches that. Born again bible believing following Evangelical Christians are hated by the world. The Worldly denominations aren't hated by the world.

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you".…Btw, Jesus believed the O.T. and took the Bible literally. 

Got questions explains it quite clearly http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Question: "Can / Should we interpret the Bible as literal?"

Answer: Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.

The disciples also took the commands of Christ (which are part of the Bible) literally. Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make more disciples in Matthew 28:19-20. In Acts 2 and following, we find that the disciples took Jesus' command literally and went throughout the known world of that time preaching the gospel of Christ and telling them to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Just as the disciples took Jesus’ words literally, so must we. How else can we be sure of our salvation if we do not believe Him when He says He came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), pay the penalty for our sin (Matthew 26:28), and provide eternal life (John 6:54)?

Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)

Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely."
 

you are so on mark, you have made me so proud to be a believer today with the words of wisdom given in this post, blessing to you for you have blessed me and others that see and read this, keep up the fight and run the race that we run for they that endure until the end in the word shall be saved,

I have come down this same path as you , my sister and come to the same conclusions and thoughts that you have expressed, we are but sinners in a world that hates truth , but will love and hold on to lies, for it is about what satan has done through the hundreds and thousands of years to blind the people from the truth

for we do not fight with one another, but it is a spiritual fight , and only through the holy spirit with in you would you be able to say what you did , for the scriptures any one can read , but to know and understand them is only for the true believer, for we see as the world sees ,but we see through it , and we see it through the eyes of the spirit , so this ,is why it is said, that many seek through the scriptures to find salvation and never find it, for it is hidden in the open , and the blind cannot see it.

but it is of God that brings us and the spirit that leads us to the pure holiness and truth of what it says, for the truth cannot be understood, unless they are in tuned with the spirit and in the word of God, for God is truth, and His laws is truth , and if we follow what God has given us, then we will walk in spirit and the truth  , and the flesh will have no power over the self,

for many are seeking to buy there way into the kingdom, and it cannot be purchased by us, we can only surrender, to the one that is able to save and bring us in,

many churches have lost there way , and watered down and made God of no effect in life, and so, we must read the bible and pray , and surrender, and have the faith to believe that God is good, and He is the source of all of our power. and encourage others to do the same, for we are at the doors.

blessings

 

[missmuffet]

23 minutes ago, Davida said:

Look around the world , do you really think we Christians are ruling with Christ now? ? The Bible does not say that, it says the whole world is under the thrall of the evil one.  1John 5:19 (NKJV) " We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 

The millennial rule of Christ and His saints,  is in the future after the great battle of Armageddon and after this is won by Christ,  the devil will be chained and imprisoned for 1000 years during the millennial rule.  That has not happened yet as should be obvious by the world condition of sin and depravity.

A handful of Christians are actually following Christ 100%. Yes, Satan is all around us but as Christians we keep our focus 100% on Christ and that means what we say and do reflexes that. No, in the Millennial kingdom we will rule the nations with Christ not here on earth. 

[simplejeff]

I hope you mean we will be as priests in His Kingdom with Christ as He rules on earth in the millennium.

55 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

A handful of Christians are actually following Christ 100%. Yes, Satan is all around us but as Christians we keep our focus 100% on Christ and that means what we say and do reflexesREFLECTS that. No, in the Millennial kingdom we will rule the nations with Christ not here on earth. 

That's true and important to remember.

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

Look around the world , do you really think we Christians are ruling with Christ now? ? The Bible does not say that, it says the whole world is under the thrall of the evil one.  1John 5:19 (NKJV) " We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 

The millennial rule of Christ and His saints,  is in the future after the great battle of Armageddon and after this is won by Christ,  the devil will be chained and imprisoned for 1000 years during the millennial rule.  That has not happened yet as should be obvious by the world condition of sin and depravity.

Christ said about the coming of His Kingdom:

 

• Luke 17

  The Coming of the Kingdom
  20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

 

Looking at verse 20:

• New International Version
  Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
  
  New Living Translation
  One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs.
  
  English Standard Version
  Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
  
  Berean Study Bible
  When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs.
  
  Berean Literal Bible
  And having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with careful observation,
  
  New American Standard Bible 
  Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
  
  King James Bible
  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  
  Holman Christian Standard Bible
  Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God will come, He answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with something observable; 
  
  International Standard Version
  Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with a visible display. 
  
  NET Bible
  Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed,
  
  Aramaic Bible in Plain English
  And when some of the Pharisees asked Yeshua, “When is the Kingdom of God coming”, he answered and he said to them, “The Kingdom of God does not come with what is observed.”
  
  GOD'S WORD® Translation
  The Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, "People can't observe the coming of the kingdom of God.
  
  New American Standard 1977 
  Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
  
  Jubilee Bible 2000
  And when he was asked of the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
  
  King James 2000 Bible
  And when he was demanded by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with outward observation:
  
  American King James Version
  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation:
  
  American Standard Version
  And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  
  Douay-Rheims Bible
  And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 
  
  Darby Bible Translation
  And having been asked by the Pharisees, When is the kingdom of God coming? he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
  
  English Revised Version
  And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  
  Webster's Bible Translation
  And when he was asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.
  
  Weymouth New Testament
  Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, He answered, "The Kingdom of God does not so come that you can stealthily watch for it.
  
  World English Bible
  Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation;
  
  Young's Literal Translation
  And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, 'The reign of God doth not come with observation;

 

So if you're looking to see evidence of the kingdom of God with your natural eyes, Jesus said you aren't going to find it, so it's no wonder you say 

• "Look around the world , do you really think we Christians are ruling with Christ now?"

 

and don't see evidence with your natural eyes.  

 

Jesus said you won't see evidence with your natural eyes, that this is not how His Kingdom is known.         We are not to be looking for a natural, physical manifestation of His Kingdom.  If we do we won't find it.

He said His Kingdom is IN OUR MIDST -  The Kingdom of God is WITHIN US.     

This is where the Kingdom of God is.  

• The kingdom of God is within you

"Is" translates  ἐστί esti

which is in the PRESENT TENSE and INDICATIVE MOOD -   

This means 

1. This is now  -  Present tense
2. This is as simple statement of fact -  Indicative Mood

 

This is what Jesus said about His Kingdom.

And this has been true about the coming of His Kingdom since He spoke those words.    The Kingdom of God has been within believers ever since -  here on earth.    It is unwise to ignore Jesus' warning that we are not to seek the coming of His Kingdom with our natural eyes and understanding.

It is unwise to ignore Jesus said very clearly, the Kingdom of God is within us right NOW.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ezra]

17 hours ago, junobet said:

As I understand it the Saints and martyrs live right now and reign with Christ, all others will sleep till judgement day. 

As long as Satan and his evil angels are on the loose, Christ is not reigning over this world with a rod of iron. How does this basic fact escape you?  Like I said, this is the Radical Islam Millennium, not the Kingdom of God established on earth with UNIVERSAL RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace, and prosperity.

Christians should be the last people to kid themselves, since they are supposed to have a knowledge of the truth. So kindly explain to all the readers in what sense Christ is ruling this evil world right now (apart from the sovereignty of God, which allows evil, and will even allow Satan to control this world completely for 3 1/2 years in the future).