fulfilled feasts

[Shar]

17 minutes ago, Joline said:

Acts 8:1   And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2  And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3  As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4   Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

To the Samaritans

14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

In the desert

26   And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27  And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
when laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Azotus until Caesarea

39  And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40  But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Peter preaches to Cornelius, the gospel goes out to the nations

11:19   Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20  And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21  And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22  Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

I do not understand why you think it  has not happened already?

I was not saying that the good news has not gone out to the nations.  I was specifically referring to Israel's role when Jesus returns to rule on earth during the Davidic reign.

[WilliamL]

43 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

• 1 John 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

• 1 Corinthians 5:21:

  For he, (God the Father), hath made him, (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

• Hebrews 9:26
  Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
• 1 Peter 2:24
  "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

All of these scriptures speak of the goat of blood sacrifice, the role Jesus played.

45 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

Leviticus 16:10
But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

This is not a truthful translation. The Hebrew reads "to (or for: the Hebrew prefix l-)" Azazel: there is no "the scapegoat" in the Hebrew. There is no "as a scapegoat" in the Hebrew. There is no "to be used for making atonement" in the Hebrew.

The goat of blood-sacrifice was killed, as Jesus was; but this goat remains alive when it is cast out:

Rev. 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is the ultimate fulfillment of the goat being cast out in Leviticus 16. But your church, and churchianity in general, cannot bring itself to speak of the fallen angels, or mention the name Azazel, so you must substitute false scripture and false doctrine in the place of the true, in order to conceal these things. Come out of Babylon, and be no more deceived.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Shar said:

I was not saying that the good news has not gone out to the nations.  I was specifically referring to Israel's role when Jesus returns to rule on earth during the Davidic reign.

The twelve apostles rule in their priesthood over the twelve tribes.

 

Mt 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

[thereselittleflower]

37 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

All of these scriptures speak of the goat of blood sacrifice, the role Jesus played.

 

No William, they speak of the scapegoat.

 

Quote

This is not a truthful translation. The Hebrew reads "to (or for: the Hebrew prefix l-)" Azazel: there is no "the scapegoat" in the Hebrew. There is no "as a scapegoat" in the Hebrew. There is no "to be used for making atonement" in the Hebrew.

 

לִפְנֵי יְהוָה לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו לְשַׁלַּח אֹתֹו לַעֲזָאזֵל הַמִּדְבָּֽרָה׃

Masoretic Text

 

Reverse Interlinear

English (KJV)   [?]		Strong's	Root Form (Hebrew)		Parsing
But the goat		h8163	שָׂעִיר sa`iyr
on which the lot		h1486	גּוֹרָל gowral
fell		h5927	עָלָה `alah
to be the scapegoat		h5799	עֲזָאזֵל`aza'zel
shall be presented		h5975	עָמַד `amad
alive		h2416	חַי chay
before		h6440	פָּנִים paniym
the LORD		h3068	יְהֹוָה Yĕhovah
to make an atonement		h3722	כָּפַר kaphar
with him, and to let himgo		h7971	שָׁלַח shalach
for a scapegoat		h5799	עֲזָאזֵל`aza'zel
into the wilderness		h4057	מִדְבָּר midbar

 

"scapegoat"

• עֲזָאזֵל ʻăzâʼzêl, az-aw-zale'; from H5795 and H235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:—scapegoat.
• Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

  1. entire removal, scapegoat

     1. refers to the goat used for sacrifice for the sins of the people

     2. meaning dubious

"to make atonement"

• כָּפַר kâphar, kaw-far'; a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:—appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile(-liation).

 

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

   1. (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch

   2. (Piel)

      1. to cover over, pacify, propitiate

      2. to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

      3. to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites

   3. (Pual)

      1. to be covered over

      2. to make atonement for

   4. (Hithpael) to be covered

Parsing Information

כָּפַר kaphar

Stem: Piel
Aspect: Infinitive

 a) Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action.

 

Quote

The goat of blood-sacrifice was killed, as Jesus was; but this goat remains alive when it is cast out:

No it doesn't.  It dies.   

 

Quote

Rev. 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is the ultimate fulfillment of the goat being cast out in Leviticus 16. But your church, and churchianity in general, cannot bring itself to speak of the fallen angels, or mention the name Azazel, so you must substitute false scripture and false doctrine in the place of the true, in order to conceal these things. Come out of Babylon, and be no more deceived.

No, because then this requires satan is the one making atonement for our sins.

 

Again, this is rank heresy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

Ok qnts,the issue of the Pharisees having teachings concerning the next world the next life, is distinct to that sect. The Sadducees concerned themselves with matters of this world this life, so everything about the Messiah, his rule, his work ETC. would be Pharasaic. So, I agree with you concerning protestants and rcc. I think Messianic Judaism shares some Pharisaic tendencies concerning Israels role in the Messianic kingdom, distinct from the nations.

I am not concerned with keeping traditions at all.

 

 

 

 

Again, I see you as so focused on what you deem as Pharisaic tendencies, whatever that is, you fail to see the Jewish culture in anyway that is positive.

I see the culture of the predominantly Gentile churches as confusing tradition for the only 'Godly' way to conduct churches, and try to force that culture on people from other cultures. I have visited churches from differing cultures and I do appreciate the differing cultural expressions, enjoying fellow believers. The only time I become concerned is when a church confuses their culture for Godliness, and accusing others from a different culture of doing it wrong and having to do things their way. In my view, forcing people from varying cultures to do things their way, as if God only likes their culture, as what many Christians call Pharisaic. But, the term Pharisaic is never used in scripture that way so it is an extra-biblical term.

The term, 'Judaizers' is used in scripture, referring to those who thought Gentiles should be circumcised, becoming Jewish and living the Jewish lifestyle. So, in scripture, it was the Judaizers who thought Gentiles need to live like Jewish people. Now, it is some Gentiles who try to force Jewish people, (and others from a different culture), to live like Gentiles. Maybe, we now need a new term, Gentilizers. 

As a compliment to this wonderful forum. The members are mainly believers, from differing countries and cultures. We have theological differences, and argue theology, but I have never seen believers targeting other believers of different backgrounds or cultures.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Again, I see you as so focused on what you deem as Pharisaic tendencies, whatever that is, you fail to see the Jewish culture in anyway that is positive.

 

The subject matter concerned things which that sect taught specifically. There have already been enough discussion concerning the differences between the beliefs of the Sadducees and the Pharisees. Therefore it is obvious that a subject which involves teachings  the other sect did not even believe in, would be Pharasaic? Why would I focus on other sectarian views among Judaism, when they never held them? that makes no sense to me.

[Qnts2]

10 minutes ago, Joline said:

The subject matter concerned things which that sect taught specifically. There have already been enough discussion concerning the differences between the beliefs of the Sadducees and the Pharisees. Therefore it is obvious that a subject which involves teachings  the other sect did not even believe in, would be Pharasaic? Why would I focus on other sectarian views among Judaism, when they never held them? that makes no sense to me.

We have already discussed that the Pharisees held a wide range of beliefs. But, since you are saying that some people or some groups are Pharisaical, and that has been a consistent term, I had to define 'Pharisaical' as it is not a biblical term. l used the scriptural term of Judaizers, which is one group, forcing another group to act the way they want the other group to act. In scripture, a  lot of the differences were ethnic and cultural. Gentiles in scripture, did not have to live like the Jewish people to be accepted by God. And today, Jewish people do not have to live like Gentiles to be acceptable to God. The French people do not have to live like Germans, and the Native Americans do not have to live like the Chinese.    

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

We have already discussed that the Pharisees held a wide range of beliefs. But, since you are saying that some people or some groups are Pharisaical, and that has been a consistent term, I had to define 'Pharisaical' as it is not a biblical term. l used the scriptural term of Judaizers, which is one group, forcing another group to act the way they want the other group to act. In scripture, a  lot of the differences were ethnic and cultural. Gentiles in scripture, did not have to live like the Jewish people to be accepted by God. And today, Jewish people do not have to live like Gentiles to be acceptable to God. The French people do not have to live like Germans, and the Native Americans do not have to live like the Chinese.    

Well I was talking about the future role of Israel, as another Messianic spoke of Isreal being made a nation of priests to the nations.  When Jesus comes and fulfills some things. As Edersheim said in the footnotes of his book, concerning the feast of tabernacles, and the water pouring ceremony.

As mentioning the prophet Isa 12:3

 

"water, in Isaiah is applied to the law, as the Jews expected the general conversion of the Gentiles to be a conversion to Judaism."

While I understand you believe we are accepted by God, but are we acceptable to be a part of his priesthood to the nations without converting to Judaism,and or living like a Jew?

Edited February 10, 2016 by Joline

[Qnts2]

11 minutes ago, Joline said:

Well I was talking about the future role of Israel, as another Messianic spoke of Isreal being made a nation of priests to the nations.  When Jesus comes and fulfills some things. As Edersheim said in the footnotes of his book, concerning the feast of tabernacles, and the water pouring ceremony.

As mentioning the prophet Isa 12:3

 

"water, in Isaiah is applied to the law, as the Jews expected the general conversion of the Gentiles to be a conversion to Judaism."

While I understand you believe we are accepted by God, but are we acceptable to be a part of his priesthood to the nations without converting to Judaism,and or living like a Jew?

Scripture does say that the Jewish people were to be a nation of priests.

And we know by the beliefs of the 'Judaizers' that they expected that the Gentiles who believed on Jesus should convert to Judaism. I do not believe that Gentiles who believe on Jesus need to be circumcised, becoming Jewish, in order to be fully accepted by God with an equal standing before God. The Levitical priesthood were intercessors between the children of Israel and God. The New Covenant priesthood is also to be intercessors but not in the same capacity as the Levitical priests. The New Covenant priesthood is to pray (intercede) and share the gospel, which means hoping to lead non-believers to Jesus, in which case, the new believers themselves become priests. There is no one who is to stand between believers and the Father other then Jesus in the New Covenant. 

Among believers, we have a diversity of cultures and ethnicities, with no one culture or ethnicity being the only right culture. If a believer chooses to worship and fellowship among believers of another culture/ethnicity, the believer should not attempt to change the culture of the ethnic group. If a believer goes to another culture to share the gospel, they need to be culturally aware so as not to insult, drive away, or force the others to live like the believers culture. Do Gentiles need to live like a Jew? No. Do Jewish believers need to live like Gentiles? Again, no.

I have been on a Native American reservation, and in Canada, a First Nations reservation, with fellow believers and attended their services. The worship music made use of Native American drums, and some was sung in the Native American languages of that tribe (Iroquoian for the Mohawks , Algonquin for the Cree, and Mi'kmaq for the Micmac). It was enjoyable as we were all believers, worshipping Jesus. I have been to conferences with people from many different countries, and it was amazing to realize that all of these people, are one in the Lord. I remember at one such conference, a couple behind me wanted to pray for me. They did not speak English so prayed in their language. Believer to believer. I prayed for them in English.  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Scripture does say that the Jewish people were to be a nation of priests.

And we know by the beliefs of the 'Judaizers' that they expected that the Gentiles who believed on Jesus should convert to Judaism. I do not believe that Gentiles who believe on Jesus need to be circumcised, becoming Jewish, in order to be fully accepted by God with an equal standing before God. The Levitical priesthood were intercessors between the children of Israel and God. The New Covenant priesthood is also to be intercessors but not in the same capacity as the Levitical priests. The New Covenant priesthood is to pray (intercede) and share the gospel, which means hoping to lead non-believers to Jesus, in which case, the new believers themselves become priests. There is no one who is to stand between believers and the Father other then Jesus in the New Covenant. 

Among believers, we have a diversity of cultures and ethnicities, with no one culture or ethnicity being the only right culture. If a believer chooses to worship and fellowship among believers of another culture/ethnicity, the believer should not attempt to change the culture of the ethnic group. If a believer goes to another culture to share the gospel, they need to be culturally aware so as not to insult, drive away, or force the others to live like the believers culture. Do Gentiles need to live like a Jew? No. Do Jewish believers need to live like Gentiles? Again, no.

I have been on a Native American reservation, and in Canada, a First Nations reservation, with fellow believers and attended their services. The worship music made use of Native American drums, and some was sung in the Native American languages of that tribe (Iroquoian for the Mohawks , Algonquin for the Cree, and Mi'kmaq for the Micmac). It was enjoyable as we were all believers, worshipping Jesus. I have been to conferences with people from many different countries, and it was amazing to realize that all of these people, are one in the Lord. I remember at one such conference, a couple behind me wanted to pray for me. They did not speak English so prayed in their language. Believer to believer. I prayed for them in English.  

Qnts, are Gentiles included in the priesthood without eating kosher, keeping the seventh day Sabbath, observing or celebrating the feasts ?

If they are then I see no difference between the Apostolic ministry going out to the nations etc. If Gentiles need not keep kosher, rest on the seventh day Sabbath, observe feast days, then we have already been party to this for 2000 years.