The Remnants of Israel

[Sister]

Ezra

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Who says God gives preference to Israel at the resurrection?  Certainly not Scripture.

You are one of them that say it.

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BTW, the 144,000 redeemed JEWS are not resurrected, but translated to Heaven (just like the Church before them).

The 144,000 are sealed, measured, and standing on Mt Sion before the wrath even begins.  You see "the church" being taken up before them?  I see them being taken up before the church. 

What about this verse?

Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

How can the saints have patience here and prove their faith if they are not going to be around?

Revelation 14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
 

Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth.  According to you the saints are already gone?  You do know that these that are blessed are the saints?

[Sister]

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BTW, the 144,000 redeemed JEWS are not resurrected, but translated to Heaven (just like the Church before them).

Ezra

So who are the 144,000 to you?  Are they the remnants of Israel?

[WilliamL]

Rather than backtrack, I'll just sum up.

1 Peter 4:6 ... the gospel was preached [Gk. root,  εὐαγγελίζω: to evangelize] also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead received the Gospel when Jesus descended to Hades, and those that accepted it, because their spirits had believed in their coming Messiah, rose from the dead soon after Jesus did, just as Matthew describes in Matt. 27:52-53.

The 144,000 are Israelites from the 12 Tribes who are converted and "sealed in their foreheads" on earth at the Lord's Coming in the clouds "immediately after the Tribulation," following the cataclysms in heaven and upon earth. 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29-30. They remain on earth during the Trumpets, as we are shown in Rev. 9:4, where they are present but not affected by the locusts from the Abyss. They then are taken up -- translated/raptured -- before the heavenly throne, as shown in Rev. 14:1-5. They are God's Hebrew elders on earth to lead the remnant of Israel during the 1260 days of Jacob's Trouble, during the rule of the Little Horn = the Mouth of the Beast.

They are "firstfruits to God," not the (exclusive) firstfruits: for all who arise during the translations/raptures/resurrections (plural) of the righteous are firstborn/firstfruits. These include those who rose right after Jesus rose, and the elect of the Church/great multitude of Rev. 7 who rise in "the Rapture," and the Two Witnesses, and the post-Wrath saints of Rev. 20:4-5, who arise in "the first resurrection." On all of these groups "the second death has no power" (20:6): the second death being for those who reject the Messiah after coming to know that he is Jesus.

[Sister]

11 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rather than backtrack, I'll just sum up.

1 Peter 4:6 ... the gospel was preached [Gk. root,  εὐαγγελίζω: to evangelize] also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead received the Gospel when Jesus descended to Hades, and those that accepted it, because their spirits had believed in their coming Messiah, rose from the dead soon after Jesus did, just as Matthew describes in Matt. 27:52-53.

Hi William

So you believe that the dead are not really dead?  This is a strange doctrine.  Jesus was not really dead, and those who already died were not really dead?  We have an underground world of zombies according to your explanation?

 1 Peter 4:6   For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And that's the whole cause of the gospel?  To preach to the dead zombies?

 

You missed this part of the verse;

 1 Peter 4:6   For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

It says LIVE according to God in the spirit.  Not in the underground spirit world, but to live in the spirit of God during our life, not death.  No man can change anything once he is dead.  His works go with him to the grave.

The cause of the gospel is to preach to those who live "dead" in spirit.  The "living" but empty inside, spiritually dead because of no truth.  This is the real cause of the gospel, ...for the living.

 

 

 

 

[Ezra]

17 hours ago, Sister said:

Ezra

So who are the 144,000 to you?  Are they the remnants of Israel?

First of all, at the Resurrection-Rapture, there will be no preferential treatment of anyone.  All the saints will be resurrected and transformed, since THERE ARE NO DISTINCTIONS within the Body of Christ.  I have never said that Israel will receive preferential treatment at the resurrection, so that can be deemed as sheer nonsense.

The 144,000 are clearly redeemed Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, and they are NOT roaming the earth at this time (as you have suggested). They may be considered a small part of the total believing remnant of Israel. But they are translated to Heaven long before the Second Coming of Christ, therefore they are a distinct group of Jews to appear in the future. and AFTER the Rapture of the Church.  The believing remnant at the Second Coming will remain on this earth, and go into the Millennial Kingdom as noted in Ezekiel and other prophecies.

[Sister]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

First of all, at the Resurrection-Rapture, there will be no preferential treatment of anyone.  All the saints will be resurrected and transformed, since THERE ARE NO DISTINCTIONS within the Body of Christ.

I agree with this and is what I have been saying all along.

 

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 I have never said that Israel will receive preferential treatment at the resurrection, so that can be deemed as sheer nonsense.

 

Why are the 144,000 separated then?  Do you know what it means to follow the lamb wheresoever he goes?

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The 144,000 are clearly redeemed Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, and they are NOT roaming the earth at this time (as you have suggested). They may be considered a small part of the total believing remnant of Israel. But they are translated to Heaven long before the Second Coming of Christ, therefore they are a distinct group of Jews to appear in the future. and AFTER the Rapture of the Church.  The believing remnant at the Second Coming will remain on this earth, and go into the Millennial Kingdom as noted in Ezekiel and other prophecies.

Clearly?  It clearly says that they are not roaming the earth?  Where does it clearly say this?  So they must be dead right?, and if dead and there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the resurrection, ...I hope you are following......they follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes because they are "christians".

then why are they not in this resurrection of the saints if there is no difference? 

 Revelation 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Can you see the contradiction in what you are saying?  The large flock get resurrected after the 144,000 are sealed, not before.  They are the FIRST-FRUITS, so they come FIRST.

I hope you can answer.

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rather than backtrack, I'll just sum up.

1 Peter 4:6 ... the gospel was preached [Gk. root,  εὐαγγελίζω: to evangelize] also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead received the Gospel when Jesus descended to Hades, and those that accepted it, because their spirits had believed in their coming Messiah, rose from the dead soon after Jesus did, just as Matthew describes in Matt. 27:52-53.

Hi William

So you believe that the dead are not really dead?  This is a strange doctrine.  Jesus was not really dead, and those who already died were not really dead?  We have an underground world of zombies according to your explanation?

Are you so without understanding of the Scriptures? There is physical death of the body, which lies in the grave, and there is spiritual death of souls, which is to be cut off from God while in Hades/Sheol. Jesus told us explicitly that the souls in Hades/Sheol are sentient, when he told how the dead rich man suffered in Hades, and spoke to Abraham, also dead. Was Abraham a "zombie"? Or was he a righteous man cut off from God by sin, awaiting the redemption of his Redeemer?

So why shouldn't Jesus "preach the Gospel" of salvation "also -- you seem to have missed the meaning of this word -- to those who are dead"? so that the believers among them "might live to God in spirit"? And if their souls are now no more cut off from God -- seeing that He, in the person of Jesus, has come into their very presence, and they into His -- why would they have any more place in Hades? How could "the gates of Hades prevail against them"?

[Sister]

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Are you so without understanding of the Scriptures? There is physical death of the body, which lies in the grave, and there is spiritual death of souls, which is to be cut off from God while in Hades/Sheol. Jesus told us explicitly that the souls in Hades/Sheol are sentient, when he told how the dead rich man suffered in Hades, and spoke to Abraham, also dead. Was Abraham a "zombie"? Or was he a righteous man cut off from God by sin, awaiting the redemption of his Redeemer?

William

Jesus told us explicitly?  Jesus gave us a parable.  You need to read it again to get the true message in this parable. Once someone is dead, their works go with them to the grave.  If one's works is not accepted by God, in the grave they cannot cross over.  They cannot change their circumstances one little bit.  They've missed out.  It's a parable William, not a licence to preach that the dead are still conscious in hell, and Jesus went down there when he died and preached to the dead so they can be saved?  This is totally contradictory to the message being relayed.

 

 Luke 16:19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

  Luke 16:20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

  Luke 16:21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

  Luke 16:22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

  Luke 16:23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

  Luke 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

  Luke 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

  Luke 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

  Luke 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

  Luke 16:28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

  Luke 16:29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

  Luke 16:30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

  Luke 16:31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Ezra]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Why are the 144,000 separated then? 

Because the Church is no longer on earth, and God has resumed His direct dealings with Israel and its twelve tribes.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Clearly?  It clearly says that they are not roaming the earth?  Where does it clearly say this? 

" The 144,000 are clearly redeemed Jews, 12,000 from each tribe... "

They are clearly redeemed Jews means that they are DEFINITELY NOT Gentiles (as taught by some). And they are not presently roaming the earth for the simple reason that we are in the Church Age, and during this time GOD MAKES NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Do you know what it means to follow the lamb wheresoever he goes?

The Lamb is Christ and the followers of the Lamb are His faithful disciples. Evidently these men are "without fault" before the throne of God.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

then why are they not in this resurrection of the saints if there is no difference? 

Because there is a difference as explained above. They are NOT a part of the Church.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Can you see the contradiction in what you are saying? 

None whatsoever.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

The large flock get resurrected after the 144,000 are sealed, not before. 

That is your assumption.  In order for the Church to be seen in Heaven, they must already have been resurrected LONG BEFORE the 144,000 are sealed on earth.

7 hours ago, Sister said:

They are the FIRST-FRUITS, so they come FIRST.

Christ is the firstfruits for the Church in connection wth the resurrection of the saints.  These are the firstfruits of redeemed and restored Israel and THEY ARE NOT SHOWN TO BE RESURRECTED. They are simply translated to Heaven.

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

10 hours ago, Sister said:

They are the FIRST-FRUITS, so they come FIRST.

Christ is the firstfruits for the Church in connection wth the resurrection of the saints.  These are the firstfruits of redeemed and restored Israel and THEY ARE NOT SHOWN TO BE RESURRECTED. They are simply translated to Heaven.

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Sister, the 144,000 are not called "the firstfruits," they are merely called firstfruits.

Under the types and shadows of the Law of Moses, there were different types of firstfruits that were given to God at different times and seasons. The firstfruits of most grains were given in the spring, those of wine and oil and other crops later throughout the year. The firstborn of men were redeemed whenever they were born.

Once again, you are imposing a meaning to Scripture without having done your homework.