Standing in the Place , where he is ,not to be ?

[WilliamL]

 

... I have a difficulty with your claim in the following:

I take the following as also in parallel with your suggested "key verse" Matthew 24:21.
Luke 21:23-24 (KJV): 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

My only explanation is that for the Jews of AD 70 there was the wiping out of the nation of Judah, their priesthood, their Temple and their Holy City. In the future there will be a time of trouble, but even though Israel will be involved in this and suffer judgements, this will not be so severe as far as Israel is concerned.

So then the continuing problem people who support your view have is this:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

If "those days" were the time of the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, then the above prophecy failed, because they were certainly NOT fulfilled "immediately after" that 70 AD tribulation of the Jews. But Preterists espouse this view anyway.

[Guest]

 

 

So then the continuing problem people who support your view have is this:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

If "those days" were the time of the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, then the above prophecy failed, because they were certainly NOT fulfilled "immediately after" that 70 AD tribulation of the Jews. But Preterists espouse this view anyway.

This particular passage need not be 70 ad. Rather IMO it is describing Christs death and resurrection, and the beginning of his ecclesia.

32   Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {it: or, he }
34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Peter here explains these things are according to the prophet Joel.

Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
 

The prophet Joel

Joel 2:1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; {trumpet: or, cornet }
2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

 

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29  And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
 

Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {his…: Gr. the Son of his love }
14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 

 

[WilliamL]

 

This particular passage need not be 70 ad. Rather IMO it is describing Christs death and resurrection, and the beginning of his ecclesia.

32   Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {it: or, he }
34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But they did not "see all these things." They did not see --

"the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Part of a prophecy seemingly being fulfilled does not cover the part that isn't: the prophecy either all failed, or one's interpretation of it failed. In this case the latter.

The generation not to pass is the generation that sees the budding of the fig tree, not the first century AD generation living when the prophecy was made.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again WilliamL,

 

So then the continuing problem people who support your view have is this:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

If "those days" were the time of the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, then the above prophecy failed, because they were certainly NOT fulfilled "immediately after" that 70 AD tribulation of the Jews. But Preterists espouse this view anyway.

I appreciate your response. I certainly do not agree with the Preterist perspective. Yes, this verse does cause a difficulty in my mind, but I still continue to support my application of Matthew 24:15-18 as being applicable to AD 70 and in parallel with Luke 21:20-24.

In seeking a resolution of this I thought it possible that it is at this point the double application of this prophecy kicks in, then I thought that "immediately" could possibly have the idea of "suddenly", rather than speak of an immediate time after the previous verse, and a third alternative would be to take the words of Matthew 24:29 as symbolic language describing the destruction of the Jewish system of things. At this stage I have not decided if any of these are satisfactory, so until I decide I am willing to place the problem in the too hard basket.

Another reason why I continue to advocate Matthew 24:15-18 as being AD 70 is that I am convinced that the Abomination that makes desolate is quoting / alluding to Daniel 8, and this passage is not speaking of the latter days, but the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Roman little horn of the goat.

I appreciate your patience with me.

Kind regards Trevor

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Another reason why I continue to advocate Matthew 24:15-18 as being AD 70 is that I am convinced that the Abomination that makes desolate is quoting / alluding to Daniel 8, and this passage is not speaking of the latter days, but the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Roman little horn of the goat.

Actually, Daniel 8:8-12 is speaking of the desolation of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, after the "transgression/pesha/apostasy" of the Jewish high priesthood. It had come to be bought and sold in this era, and to promote Hellenistic doctrine and practices. The same event is described in Dan. 11:30-31.

The "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that Jesus refers to in Matt. 24:15 is the event/term specifically mentioned in Daniel 12:11, which is clearly an End Time prophecy, as we are told in Dan. 11:40-12:3. So you are correct that Daniel 8 is "not speaking of the latter days" -- but neither is it speaking of 70 AD. The "diminuitive horn"  -- not 'little'; a different word is used for Dan. 7's Little Horn -- from one of the Greek Empire's 4 horns (Dan. 8:8) was Antiochus, who arose out of the Seleucid branch of the Greek Empire.

[SINNERSAVED]

13 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, Daniel 8:8-12 is speaking of the desolation of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, after the "transgression/pesha/apostasy" of the Jewish high priesthood. It had come to be bought and sold in this era, and to promote Hellenistic doctrine and practices. The same event is described in Dan. 11:30-31.

The "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that Jesus refers to in Matt. 24:15 is the event/term specifically mentioned in Daniel 12:11, which is clearly an End Time prophecy, as we are told in Dan. 11:40-12:3. So you are correct that Daniel 8 is "not speaking of the latter days" -- but neither is it speaking of 70 AD. The "diminuitive horn"  -- not 'little'; a different word is used for Dan. 7's Little Horn -- from one of the Greek Empire's 4 horns (Dan. 8:8) was Antiochus, who arose out of the Seleucid branch of the Greek Empire.

but William L question if in matthew Jesus is talking future, then how is it that Jesus says make sure its not during the Sabbath, and those flee to the mountains, would this not be of the past, and not the future just on what He said ? thank you

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, SINNERSAVED said:

but William L question if in matthew Jesus is talking future, then how is it that Jesus says make sure its not during the Sabbath, and those flee to the mountains, would this not be of the past, and not the future just on what He said ? thank you

How do we know what the future state of Israel will be? Currently, mass transportation doesn't run in most cities on the Sabbath. In Jerusalem, Orthodox Jews sometimes harass and stone cars, because it is against Jewish religious law on the Sabbath to travel in vehicles, or to use electricity, as in elevators. Due to the continuing unrest with the Palestinians -- stabbings, stone-throwing, etc. -- travel may well become even more restricted in the future.

[SINNERSAVED]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

How do we know what the future state of Israel will be? Currently, mass transportation doesn't run in most cities on the Sabbath. In Jerusalem, Orthodox Jews sometimes harass and stone cars, because it is against Jewish religious law on the Sabbath to travel in vehicles, or to use electricity, as in elevators. Due to the continuing unrest with the Palestinians -- stabbings, stone-throwing, etc. -- travel may well become even more restricted in the future.

thank you for that William, I ask this of my ignorance to the situation, and how the culture and what there society  is like, I have no clue of what they are really going through , and I thought from a American view, that there was no issue on the Sabbath or , about the ways that would be in the past, and so that is why I asked, to confirm and to understand, and so if it was understood of the conditions they have according to the scripture then we can all have a better understanding in putting the scripture to the situation of today  ,that's why I asked,

 thank you , if you want to expand on it more I am all ears,

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

 thank you , if you want to expand on it more I am all ears,

Set the scene:

Before the abomination of desolation, the spirit-King of the South, via ISIS or Iran or some other rep, has inflicted either Europe, America, or both with great casualties far beyond what we have seen so far. (Daniel 11:40) Palestinians are celebrating in the streets like after 9-11, and upping their attacks inside of Israel. An enraged populace from NATO countries demands retribution, and Syria is quickly invaded and overrun, probably Lebanon's Hezbollah also. Israel is occupied. (Dan. 11:40-41) Egypt, Libya, and Sudan are thereafter invaded by the various NATO-alliance countries. (11:42-43) Italy and other NATO countries are even now planning on sending "stabilization forces" to Libya.

Now at this point, do you think things in Israel will be like they are today? Highly unlikely. Some kind of limited martial law will already have been put into effect after Israel is occupied by the foreign military, even if it is Israel's supposed ally NATO.

From there, things only get worse, with "news from the east [Iran/China/Pakistan] and the north [Russia] that shall trouble" the head of the NATO countries. (11:44) So after the northern ruler then comes "to the glorious holy mountain" (11:45) and plants his headquarters there -- being the abomination of desolation, or just preceding it (11:45-12:1) -- there is good reason to suspect that people's movements on the Sabbath would be restricted.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again WilliamL,

I appreciate your response, but this made me realise that we have different perspectives on much of end-time prophecy. For my part I have established in my mind a basic framework, and then understood some of the detail within this framework. Some of the framework itself has been arrived at by considering some of the detail, giving more weight to some passages than others. Both the framework and detail has been arrived at by the teaching environment within my immediate and larger fellowship, some by listening to preferred expositors, and some by personal study. Within my environment there has been a reasonable ebb and flow of people and ideas, and we gradually accept and absorb some of this, and reject some that does not seem reasonable.

When I look at your latest responses, there are significant differences of view, and I think it would be difficult to come to an overall agreement. I would mainly like to point out my difference of perspective.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, Daniel 8:8-12 is speaking of the desolation of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, after the "transgression/pesha/apostasy" of the Jewish high priesthood. It had come to be bought and sold in this era, and to promote Hellenistic doctrine and practices. The same event is described in Dan. 11:30-31.

The "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that Jesus refers to in Matt. 24:15 is the event/term specifically mentioned in Daniel 12:11, which is clearly an End Time prophecy, as we are told in Dan. 11:40-12:3. So you are correct that Daniel 8 is "not speaking of the latter days" -- but neither is it speaking of 70 AD. The "diminuitive horn"  -- not 'little'; a different word is used for Dan. 7's Little Horn -- from one of the Greek Empire's 4 horns (Dan. 8:8) was Antiochus, who arose out of the Seleucid branch of the Greek Empire.

I believe that the little horn of the goat is the Roman power as it developed in the Eastern portion of the Roman Empire. It grew out of Pergamos and then
Daniel 8:9 (KJV): And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

I also believe that the following defines the 2300 years from BC 334-333 to AD 1967, and that Jesus alludes to Daniel 8 in the Mount Olivet prophecy in Matthew and Luke::

Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Matthew 24:15-18 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

How do we know what the future state of Israel will be? Currently, mass transportation doesn't run in most cities on the Sabbath. In Jerusalem, Orthodox Jews sometimes harass and stone cars, because it is against Jewish religious law on the Sabbath to travel in vehicles, or to use electricity, as in elevators. Due to the continuing unrest with the Palestinians -- stabbings, stone-throwing, etc. -- travel may well become even more restricted in the future.

The reason why they were to pray that their flight would not be on the Sabbath Day in AD 70 was that since the days of Nehemiah the city gates were shut during the Sabbath. There is no reasonable explanation of this prophecy in relation to the future invasion, especially a few stone throwing Orthodox Jews, and I also believe that when the northern invader comes to Jerusalem the faithful will already be gathered to the Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor