Guest Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: I'm not an expert on Messianic Judaism. Can you expand a bit on sacraments within Messianic Judaism. For example, are they necessary for salvation? Are they contrary to NT teaching in some respect? If we get to defining, anyone in a denomination could be considered to be in a cult which is NOT what Kwik and I are saying. Could you please Look at my post and what Mark kinzer teaches there?. I am not asking concerning anything that needs expertise. Just to read what is being taught, just like you are doing here with other "cults". Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,058 Content Per Day: 14.92 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Joline said: Excuse me... Yes I know that. but this thread is to designate certain characteristics of a cult. I am asking about the doctrine above concerning cults. Does the teaching of sacramental aspects within Messianic Judaism as posted above fit the characters of a cult? Rabbi Mark Kinzer is placing an additional obligation on Jewish Christians versus Gentile Christians. Many denominations do that without false teaching. He has built a case for Jewish Christians to follow Jewish obligations. From what I can discern, this is an added obligation that is not supportable. It doesn't necessarily conflict with Christianity, but it doesn't necessarily add anything to it. Does his teaching rise to the level of cultic? Probably not. But that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2016 Quote Does the teaching of sacramental aspects within Messianic Judaism as posted above fit the characters of a cult? 0 posted by joline I don't really think it can be categorized as a "cult" unless (Ezra gave us definitions)they are pretty much brainwashing folks somehow,,,,,IO think that would simply be classified as false Christianity,,,,in all actuality ,even the term"Messianic Judiasm" is sort of a .mixture of contradictions(imo) But this Thread is really not about that ,,,,,,,it is more about what a cult IS,,,,,,,I think after all the information we are getting here,,,I would not think so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and as far as Kinzer is concerned,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,I suppose he himself is a messianic jew so I don;t really have anything to comment on the fellow,,,,, Quote If we get to defining, anyone in a denomination could be considered to be in a cult which is NOT what Kwik and I are saying. posted by SAvedONebyGrace I agree whole heartedly & wouldn't even go there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not my place,it is between them & God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,058 Content Per Day: 14.92 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 For more about Rabbi Mark Kinzer, I used the following: http://www.kesherjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: Rabbi Mark Kinzer is placing an additional obligation on Jewish Christians versus Gentile Christians. Many denominations do that without false teaching. He has built a case for Jewish Christians to follow Jewish obligations. From what I can discern, this is an added obligation that is not supportable. It doesn't necessarily conflict with Christianity, but it doesn't necessarily add anything to it. Does his teaching rise to the level of cultic? Probably not. But that's just my opinion. No, because he says right here drawing such lines are artificial. He speaks of Israel's priestly mediation. Despite the characteristically Christian origins and connotations of the word “sacrament"and despite polemical attempts to use the word to draw artificial lines of demarcation between Jewish and Christian religion, the reality to which the word points is an integral feature of Jewish life. It is the reality of divine mediation -- of the infinite God’s gracious self -giving within the finitude of the space-time world by means of “visible signs” (human words, human acts, and created things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, kwikphilly said: I don't really think it can be categorized as a "cult" unless (Ezra gave us definitions)they are pretty much brainwashing folks somehow,,,,,IO think that would simply be classified as false Christianity,,,,in all actuality ,even the term"Messianic Judiasm" is sort of a .mixture of contradictions(imo) But this Thread is really not about that ,,,,,,,it is more about what a cult IS,,,,,,,I think after all the information we are getting here,,,I would not think so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and as far as Kinzer is concerned,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,I suppose he himself is a messianic jew so I don;t really have anything to comment on the fellow,,,,, I agree whole heartedly & wouldn't even go there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not my place,it is between them & God Mark Kinzer says to make a polemic between Christian priestly mediation in sacraments is artificial. Therefore to speak of the function of Christian sacraments as though they are different from Jewish sacraments are artificial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,058 Content Per Day: 14.92 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Joline said: No, because he says right here drawing such lines are artificial. He speaks of Israel's priestly mediation. Despite the characteristically Christian origins and connotations of the word “sacrament"and despite polemical attempts to use the word to draw artificial lines of demarcation between Jewish and Christian religion, the reality to which the word points is an integral feature of Jewish life. It is the reality of divine mediation -- of the infinite God’s gracious self -giving within the finitude of the space-time world by means of “visible signs” (human words, human acts, and created things). If you read Revelation, you'll see that Israel and the twelve tribes of Israel hold a special place in the kingdom to come. Israel's priestly mediation is not needed because Jesus is now our High Priest. Divine mediation can only come through Jesus. I have no idea what the bold section of text is trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Just now, Saved.One.by.Grace said: If you read Revelation, you'll see that Israel and the twelve tribes of Israel hold a special place in the kingdom to come. Israel's priestly mediation is not needed because Jesus is now our High Priest. Divine mediation can only come through Jesus. I have no idea what the bold section of text is trying to say. Mediation is a priestly function. It is as He says. To attempt to draw a line between this function with the word sacrament, as though it were something different is artificial. Is it a cultic trait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted May 24, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,058 Content Per Day: 14.92 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, Joline said: Mediation is a priestly function. It is as He says. To attempt to draw a line between this function with the word sacrament, as though it were something different is artificial. Is it a cultic trait? What scripture are you using to state that mediation is a priestly function? Who are the priests you are referring to? The answer to your question depends on the answers to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: 1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: What scripture are you using to state that mediation is a priestly function? Who are the priests you are referring to? The answer to your question depends on the answers to mine. If you read Revelation, you'll see that Israel and the twelve tribes of Israel hold a special place in the kingdom to come. Israel's priestly mediation is not needed because Jesus is now our High Priest. Divine mediation can only come through Jesus. I have no idea what the bold section of text is trying to say. This has nothing to do with what mark taught. So what is it? a cultic trait or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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