HAZARD Posted May 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2016 13 hours ago, Kan said: Hazard, you have a thread on this already don't you? Is chaos necessary in your thoughts about beginnings and creation etc. or is it just a result of sin? God never creates chaos, He is not the author of sin, sickness of confusion, these thongs are always the result of sin. 1 Cor. 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. James 3:16, For where envying and strife is, there is confusion8 and every evil work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 20, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 9 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: One only has to look at DNA to know that Intelligent Design is a fact. Just like Junk DNA is not really junk. We just don't have the intelligence to understand it yet. In the Bible, chaos usually reflects judgment. Look at the tower of Babel. God confused the tongues of mankind to prevent them from too quickly learning to work together without gaining the wisdom that can only come from age. At least, that's my opinion. Chaos doesn't come from nature. Everything in the universe operates under a causal relationship. We may not understand the cause, but it's there. Lest one accuses me of reverting back to my previous Calvinist beliefs, mankind has free will. God knows our choices before we make them, but the choices are ours and we have to answer for them. That is precisely where I was headed in the questions - that chaos breaks up a set path, like that of Babel. A perfect example. The people were of one accord and built a tower. They were on a one way track to destruction and idolatry. So God scattered them abroad. From that scattering (chaos) came the different and interesting cultures, rather than just the single obsession about building an idolatrous tower. BTW, an interesting statement in bold. What do you mean by a casual relationship? So is chaos a platform for absolutely anything to occur? Here is a more difficult question (I guess) does perfect chaos have energy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 20, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 6 hours ago, kwikphilly said: Blessings Kan,,,,, I cannot relate what I am pondering to science,not at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,actually I should probably think about it more but hey,I'll throw it out here anyway guys,,,,,,I'm thinking about the outer darkness ,hell & inevitably "the lake of fire",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,won't that be total "chaos"? And God is the Creator,,,,,,,,,,,,He will make it,right? I know,I'm speculating,lol Let's just consider what you write as "the outer darkness" that we presume was present at the creation. The Bible talks about that as "the deep" or "the waters." Just like the bottom of the ocean, it is totally dark, the pressure is unbearable and deadly, it moves and cannot be stopped, it is cold. Another passage in Job says the face of the deep is frozen and like a stone. God also says it is the shadow of death, or death, in other words life cannot exist there. What is this thing that has all these characteristics, which God used in creation? Is it a real phenomenon? Since God says He founded the earth on it, and that it has been stretched to form the heaven around the sun, earth and planets. There are many things said about it throughout the Bible. Probably the best way to think about it, is just like the Moses wrote - dark, deep, heavy, mighty, waters, just like the ocean. And of course the easiest way to conceive the light in creation is by literal light. It dispels the darkness, shines into it and out of it, uses it, combines with it, etc. We are about to see if chaos or "the dark" has any energy, which should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 20, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 2 hours ago, HAZARD said: God never creates chaos, He is not the author of sin, sickness of confusion, these thongs are always the result of sin. 1 Cor. 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. James 3:16, For where envying and strife is, there is confusion8 and every evil work. One of the Hebrew meanings of His name is unmovable/heavy/strong. Extremely strong. But as you have pointed out He is not dangerous, and the opposite of that - the giver of life and peace, as powerful as His strength. Another texts says "Our God is a consuming fire." So God has the attributes of being "terrible in might" as some of the prophets say. Can we expect that in the creation of the universe, and even just our solar system, that there are forces involved which are "terrible in might" ? Is the darkness or waters in the beginning of creation such a mighty force of stupendous power? The Hebrew text lends itself to mean chaos. Let's call it a healthy chaos. It is used in creation, but what is it? What are its characteristics? Is the darkness a real thing or just an expression? Remember there are a few texts which say that God creates darkness, which we know does not have a spiritual connotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,158 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 21, 2016 To distinguish chaos in the infinite set is foolishness in a finite being.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 45 minutes ago, enoob57 said: To distinguish chaos in the infinite set is foolishness in a finite being.... I hope you are not suggesting we give up because we are at the receiving end of knowledge. Proverbs 4:7 "Wisdom is the principle thing; therefor get wisdom: and with all thy getting, get understanding." Proverbs chapters 1 to 9, speak about the Source of wisdom and knowledge as it relates to creation and morality. The same Power which creates is the Source of morality, the two go hand in hand. The Lord has established the heavens and the earth by wisdom (aptness or morality) and knowledge (intelligence). These themes are married in the Proverbs. By setting the mind to find out interesting things in nature and the Bible, it is distracted from the transient offers of the world, and therefor it is being strengthened for good. The "infinite sets" can be appreciated in the open personality of God, as demonstrated in the life of Jesus. All of God's creations have His Divine attributes and character built into them. Nature reflects His glory. Love is the first infinite set. While we cannot know the intricate workings of the Divine, we can know the principles of its existence and function. The gospel is the light which illuminates the nature of the universe. We don't look into space and think, to quote a celebrity scientist, "The universe is full of dark and malevolent forces," but we say, "Look what manner of love God has shown us." Anybody can know what love is, even animals understand that one. Love and not doubt, is the right tool to measure the mysteries of the universe, it is the starting point. James 1:5. God does not withhold wisdom, there is plenty more where it comes from without every draining the bank. So how do we apply the principle of love to this topic? Everything that God makes is good or appropriate. At the beginning of creation we are introduced to the waters, the deep, etc, which are sometimes bound up with the notion of chaos. We would have to conclude that whatever it is, it is a good thing, wouldn't you agree? How is chaos good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,158 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 21, 2016 3 hours ago, enoob57 said: To distinguish chaos in the infinite set is foolishness in a finite being.... 3 hours ago, Kan said: I hope you are not suggesting we give up because we are at the receiving end of knowledge. Proverbs 4:7 "Wisdom is the principle thing; therefor get wisdom: and with all thy getting, get understanding." Proverbs chapters 1 to 9, speak about the Source of wisdom and knowledge as it relates to creation and morality. The same Power which creates is the Source of morality, the two go hand in hand. The Lord has established the heavens and the earth by wisdom (aptness or morality) and knowledge (intelligence). These themes are married in the Proverbs. By setting the mind to find out interesting things in nature and the Bible, it is distracted from the transient offers of the world, and therefor it is being strengthened for good. The "infinite sets" can be appreciated in the open personality of God, as demonstrated in the life of Jesus. All of God's creations have His Divine attributes and character built into them. Nature reflects His glory. Love is the first infinite set. While we cannot know the intricate workings of the Divine, we can know the principles of its existence and function. The gospel is the light which illuminates the nature of the universe. We don't look into space and think, to quote a celebrity scientist, "The universe is full of dark and malevolent forces," but we say, "Look what manner of love God has shown us." Anybody can know what love is, even animals understand that one. Love and not doubt, is the right tool to measure the mysteries of the universe, it is the starting point. I disagree with your assessment here! Only that born of God can know love... James 1:5. God does not withhold wisdom, there is plenty more where it comes from without every draining the bank. So how do we apply the principle of love to this topic? Everything that God makes is good or appropriate. At the beginning of creation we are introduced to the waters, the deep, etc, which are sometimes bound up with the notion of chaos. We would have to conclude that whatever it is, it is a good thing, wouldn't you agree? How is chaos good? What I am saying is that knowledge is defined to the heart 1 Co 8:1-2 8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. KJV this being the understood truth- all are automatically placed in humility of incapability... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 3 hours ago, enoob57 said: What I am saying is that knowledge is defined to the heart 1 Co 8:1-2 8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. KJV this being the understood truth- all are automatically placed in humility of incapability... Love, Steven In the same text it says "We know that we all have knowledge." The next verse 3, says "If any man love God the same is known of Him." There is plenty of information on this thread topic in the Bible... It doesn't have a lot to do with "things offered unto idols" so join in and don't feel incapable. Going by some of your posts on other topics you are not shallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 On 5/13/2016 at 4:26 PM, Kan said: Does the Bible infer chaos at the beginning of creation? Not really. Just as a lump of clay is formless and void until the potter begins to shape it, the earth is described as being initially without form and void. But those who cling to the Gap Theory believe that there was chaos because something went wrong with the *creation before the creation*. Now that's chaotic thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 6 hours ago, Kan said: How is chaos good? Who said it was good? Satan loves chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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