more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Ezra]

26 minutes ago, DARRELX said:

Of course an Armenian does believe you can lose your salvation and so cannot be certain of their salvation. 

All non-Calvinists are not Arminians. And there are more problems with Five Point Calvinism than with Arminianism.  So the best course of action is to avoid both schools of doctrine and be a Biblicist.

[enoob57]

The Salvation module >in and of itself< is total monergistic in design~ However Calvinistic monergism breaks down by God's Own witness of His Heart:

Eze 33:11
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why
will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

clearly this examples God's chosen people "O house of Israel" yet they are perishing outside of God's doing as God Testifies here

Isa 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

Bottom line God has provided the synergism within acceptance of the free gift 'the Salvation' Christ has wrought for us...
Love, Steven

 

[DARRELX]

31 minutes ago, Ezra said:

All non-Calvinists are not Arminians. And there are more problems with Five Point Calvinism than with Arminianism.  So the best course of action is to avoid both schools of doctrine and be a Biblicist.

Can you point out those problems?

[DARRELX]

24 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

clearly this examples God's chosen people "O house of Israel" yet they are perishing outside of God's doing as God Testifies here

Do you understand the difference between Gods temporal work and His eternal work. Israel was part of Gods temporal work to benifit the Elects eternal salvation. That is why Paul said...

Romans  9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:  9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the promise seed?

Galatians  3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.  3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.  3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So Israel's temporary election cannot be an example to exclude the Elects assurance of eternal salvation.

Edited July 4, 2016 by DARRELX

[enoob57]

Yes you have to try to wrangle in reason with the logical contradiction that is with monergism
within the total depravity! However with synergism the logical fallacy disappears.... It's this simple
if God does all He does for His Good Pleasure and there exists His displeasure then that outside of His
doing (an) else is being done!

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, DARRELX said:

Can you point out those problems?

Shiloh did a good job earlier on in this thread, so this summarizes the problems quite well. He an I are on the same page (along with most of the posters). I will add this -- election is for ultimate perfection and glorification, not for salvation:

"I think it is important to note that nothing about the 5 points of Calvinism are in the Bible.  There is nothing in the Bible about election being unconditional, nothing in the Bible about the atonement being only efficacious for the unconditionally elect, nothing in the Bible about man being so totally depraved that he must be regenerated first before he can receive or answer the call to salvation, nothing about grace being irresistible.  None of that is there.   The problem with perseverance is that it is predicated on those other four principles and not really on the faithfulness of God.

I believe in eternal security, but not for the reasons that the Calvinists do.  I believe we are eternally secure because God is faithful to His promises.  We are secure because God is not going to change his mind tomorrow and decide to revoke salvation and the Gospel.

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.

Calvinism is a theological teaching, but it is not really biblical teaching.  And Calvin was a lawyer and was trained as a lawyer not a theologian.  His "Institutes" were not the product of a long and deep abiding relationship with the Lord, but were written within just a couple of years of his conversion to Christianity from Catholicism. 

I am not a pure Arminian in that strict Arminianism believes that salvation can be lost."

[DARRELX]

56 minutes ago, Ezra said:

There is nothing in the Bible about election being unconditional.

 

Romans  9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.  9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Unconditional election means that there was nothing good in ourselves that prompted God to choose them for salvation because all have sinned and one sin contaminates the whole person. 

Just one sin condems the whole man so the Elect, those chosen by God MARK 13:20, cannot be deluded that God chose them because they were good in any way.

56 minutes ago, Ezra said:

There is nothing in the Bible about the atonement being only efficacious for the unconditionally elect. 

John  10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.  10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.  10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In John Chapter 6 Jesus explained that these Sheep are those given Him by the Father and that it is the Father who determines these sheep not the other way around.

John  6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.  6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

56 minutes ago, Ezra said:

There is nothing in the Bible about man being so totally depraved that he must be regenerated first before he can receive or answer the call to salvation, nothing about grace being irresistible.  

I don't know about being regenerated at first but I do know that a mans heart is naturally hardened toward God so that God has to work on that heart before that man can receive Christ and that left to themselves no man can come to that revelation on his own.

We see from Romans that this process is entirely a work of God from beginning to end.

Romans  8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?  8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?  8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.  8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is the complete order of Gods salvation of the Elect.

1: FOREKNEW

2: PREDESTINED

3: CALLED

4: JUSTIFIED

5: GLORIFIED

And Paul refers to these as the Elect in verse 33.

So who does God call, those that He predestined. The Elect which He already forknew. This also shows that God does not call everyone because we see that God only called the Elect and that there is no falling away or rejection of those called but they were Justified and gloryfied.

Of course the doctrine of Election is abhorrent to some and that is why when many heard it they left Christ.

John  6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Of course the doctrine of election is only revealed to the maturer Christians because it is too hard for babes in Christ. 

The doctrine of election is there but like the doctrine of the Trinity it has to be gleaned because it is not so obvious at first.

Edited July 4, 2016 by DARRELX

[DARRELX]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

I am not a pure Arminian in that strict Arminianism believes that salvation can be lost."

Yes you believe in free will but as long as you can say with Peter...

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.  6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

There is no where for the Elect to go for they are sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the only true God and that only Jesus has the words of eternal life. Where can they go then, atheism, certainly not. Another religion, no way. 

Jude also says that Christ is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before the presents of His glory 1:24.

So God is certainly able to that so why should we fear that He won't do that, praise His name!

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by DARRELX

[Ezra]

14 hours ago, DARRELX said:

Unconditional election means that there was nothing good in ourselves that prompted God to choose them for salvation because all have sinned and one sin contaminates the whole person. 

And it is precisely because ALL HAVE SINNED that all need to be saved, therefore ALL CAN BE SAVED if all will repent and believe.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17).

When Calvinists ignore these fundamental truths, they reveal that their doctrine is NOT Bible doctrine. The above verse itself demolishes unconditional election according to TULIP.

[DARRELX]

6 minutes ago, Ezra said:

When Calvinists ignore these fundamental truths, they reveal that their doctrine is NOT Bible doctrine. The above verse itself demolishes unconditional election according to TULIP.

In Revelation  5:9 we read...

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

The message of Christ is that His salvation is for everyone and not just the Jewish nation. 

If you continue to read John you will see that Christ says that other sheep (the Elect) He has that are not of the (Jewish) fold. JOHN 10:16

Since the Elect are chosen out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation, the message has to go out to all the world. See MARK 13:27

This in no way proves that the doctrine of election is a false one. 

I am all for the Gospel of Jesus Christ being preached to the whole world. May every man hear that Jesus died for their sins for Christ will not return until all His sheep are saved.