work

[post]

On 5/24/2016 at 3:26 PM, Ezra said:

we are to WORK OUT our salvation with fear and trembling. 

" nothing can be 'worked out' that hasn't first been 'worked in'  "
 
                  

[post]

On 5/24/2016 at 3:26 PM, Ezra said:

Work cannot be separated from God.  He worked during creation, He worked for our salvation, and God has ordained that man should work six days and rest on the seventh. Therefore idleness is unacceptable to God, and we are to WORK OUT our salvation with fear and trembling.  Even prayer is work, and the study of God's Word is hard labor performed by a workman (2 Tim 2:15).

can you express these thoughts in terms of physics &/or in the language of math? 

[post]

there are two common forms of multiplication for vector quantities {a,b}, the cross product 'a × b' and the dot product 'a · b'

these are defined quite differently: 

 

 

something to note is that a × b has a vector result: a quantity with a direction.
on the other hand a · b results in a scalar: a directionless quantity. 

why is this interesting? 

recall the definition of work: 

work is a dot product. work is a directionless quantity.

 

 

as believers, our 'works' do not result in a direction -- they are purely a quantity. 

 

• Q: what quantity is sufficient for us to accomplish to be justified before the holy Most High? 
• A: infinity

and our works do not direct us towards heaven -- they cannot; they are are directionless. 
so then, 

It is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. 
(Ephesians 2:8-9) 


 

 

[post]

20 minutes ago, post said:

 

and our works do not direct us towards heaven -- they cannot; they are are directionless. 
so then, 

It is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. 
(Ephesians 2:8-9) 

instead, we have already been set in motion in the direction, and what works we now do we do contribute to the scalar amplitude, but don't 'direct' us. 
 

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, 
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:10)

the direction is toward good works, and the our vector was provided by God our Creator and Redeemer, who multiplied grace and peace to us through Jesus Christ our Lord !!  

so i guess what i'm saying is that 1 Peter 1:2 is a cross product? 

ha!  
amen! 

[post]

quoting from wiki, 

In the philosophy of thermal and statistical physics, Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment created by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in which he suggested how the Second Law of Thermodynamics could hypothetically be violated.^[1] In the thought experiment, a demon controls a small door between two chambers of gas. As individual gas molecules approach the door, the demon quickly opens and shuts the door so that fast molecules pass into the other chamber, while slow molecules remain in the first chamber. Because faster molecules are hotter, the demon's behavior causes one chamber to warm up as the other cools, thus decreasing entropy and violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

is it any wonder that Maxwell -- a Christian, by the way -- called the mechanism in his thought experiment a 'demon' ? 

consider how this might apply to the spiritual analogy i've been trying to develop. this is work being done on the system - a transfer of heat energy from one chamber to the other - with a decrease in entropy ((some have argued that the in a complete analysis, the more entropy would arise from the demon itself than what it removed from the chambers, but this is immaterial to what i wanted to say here)). work being accomplished without work being 'done.'
it is like the proposition that we who accept and believe in the grace of God that declares us holy are so often accused of - that we consider it a license to live in sin and do no 'works' or that we suppose we can be sanctified without living a life that is sanctified. the accusation is that we believe we can lead holy lives without actually leading holy lives, a gnostic heresy of a sort, and a false accusation toward anyone who has believed the true gospel of my Christ -- because instead, we do good works and are impelled to do them, the difference being that they are motivated now out of love and in righteous reply to what has been ascribed to us through His Living Mercy and the power of the cross, not out of dread, in order to earn or to keep the gift that was given to us on the basis of faith. 
 

is an entropic principle established in the scripture? yes: 

Where no oxen are, the crib is clean:
but much increase is by the strength of the ox.
(Proverbs 14:4) 

by implication ((and isn't this funny? who says no humor in the Good Book??)) the crib is not clean when the oxen are present; its disorder is increased. and present in us is a great Ox - the Spirit who is the seal upon us and earnest, which prepares us and empowers us toward every good work set before us, as predestined for us be part in, prepared for us by the Lord. the 'demon' suggests that the saved may ignore what was prepared for us, that the works can be accomplished without our hand in them. but -- 

For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. 
(Ephesians 2:10) 

the scripture says otherwise, and the 2nd law says otherwise. work is done by applied forces across distances, causing displacements -- the force of the Spirit, the distance of non-negative, non-zero time, and the displacement of the need by the fulfilling of it as servants of the Lord of Hosts, that we may be children of our Father, who meets every need abundantly in His time, with substance, not mere words 

But Jesus said to him,
"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." 
(Luke 9:62)

[siegi91]

On May 24, 2016 at 10:10 AM, post said:

the physical definition of work is a force dotted across a distance. 



the calculation of the amount of work done involves an active differential of momentum ('a force') acting on a body causing a displacement. 
notice that it involves something happening to a thing, and that thing being moved. 

two interesting results fall out physically from this definition that i'd like to call attention to in spiritual terms. 

• the work done is path-independent. it only matters how far the object is displaced from its original location; not the route it took to get there. if you move a couch upstairs, the work done is the same whether you take it outside and lift it up through a window, haul it right up the stairs, move it across the street first or take it apart and drop it bit by bi through a skylight and then reassemble it. 
• if the displacement is zero, no work is done. that is, if the final location is the same as the starting location ((at least in the interval considered)) then the amount of physical work calculated is nil. if you move that couch back downstairs, no work has been accomplished with regard to the couch. also, if you go back home after you go to your job, you've done no work! ((haha! ))

how does this relate to our life as being found in Christ? 

well, consider the work done on us by the Spirit of God. the Father has drawn us to Christ, separating us and calling us out of the world and from darkness, displacing us into the glorious light of His presence, from death into life. if we then return to the things that He brought us out of - in our hearts, our thinking or our actions, then no "work" is calculated, because the displacement is 0 over that interval. 

what about path-independence? it's said, and it's very true - that with regard to the believer and his everyday vocation, 'what you do is not nearly as important as how you do it' -- referring to scripture like Colossians 3:23 & Ephesians 6:7 -- plying your trade as though for God, not for men, with the attitude and character that reflects service to the Lord rather than an earthly 'boss' -- the heavenly Boss is your employer, no matter what your 'job' is. so is this sentiment an expression of 'path dependence' if we were to calculate spiritual 'work' ? 

i'd love to hear your thoughts and comments, and however you may develop this concept more

We take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 10:5)

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 1:6)

 

Work is usually measured in joules, calories or electron-volts. Like energy, to which it is strictly related.

I admit I am not a very spiritual person, so I have no clue about spiritual work; like the one you mention concerning the Holy Spirit working on us.

My question is: can we measure this sort of spiritual work using the same units?

siege

 

 

[post]

33 minutes ago, siegi91 said:

Work is usually measured in joules, calories or electron-volts. Like energy, to which it is strictly related.

I admit I am not a very spiritual person, so I have no clue about spiritual work; like the one you mention concerning the Holy Spirit working on us.

My question is: can we measure this sort of spiritual work using the same units?

siege

hmm i think we'd have to take serious looks at what definition of a "meter" is in spiritual terms, and even a "second" -- these SI terms are based on standard physical measurements of the natural world. to speak of spirit in terms of math & physics, we for sure have to have some very long ((and i think very interesting)) talks about measure theory ! 

that's a really excellent question, because of where trying to answer it can lead, in my opinion.
thanks, siege! 
and thanks for taking time to look at my wildly esoteric thread hee hee

[DARRELX]

On 5/24/2016 at 11:55 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

In a thermodyanamiic sense, work is defined much differently.  For example, one would not be able to say that no work was performed climbing up stairs, and then climbing down stairs.  Energy was expended going up, with no energy received going down to zero work out.  It's like telling someone running a circular race that ends at the finish line that no work was involved.  Your example is fine for those who don't know better.

I would say it is a lot of work for nothing if you end up at the start. 

My question is, is it work if we do not sweat?

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 7:35 AM, post said:

quoting from wiki, 

In the philosophy of thermal and statistical physics, Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment created by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in which he suggested how the Second Law of Thermodynamics could hypothetically be violated.^[1] In the thought experiment, a demon controls a small door between two chambers of gas. As individual gas molecules approach the door, the demon quickly opens and shuts the door so that fast molecules pass into the other chamber, while slow molecules remain in the first chamber. Because faster molecules are hotter, the demon's behavior causes one chamber to warm up as the other cools, thus decreasing entropy and violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

is it any wonder that Maxwell -- a Christian, by the way -- called the mechanism in his thought experiment a 'demon' ? 

consider how this might apply to the spiritual analogy i've been trying to develop. this is work being done on the system - a transfer of heat energy from one chamber to the other - with a decrease in entropy ((some have argued that the in a complete analysis, the more entropy would arise from the demon itself than what it removed from the chambers, but this is immaterial to what i wanted to say here)). work being accomplished without work being 'done.'
it is like the proposition that we who accept and believe in the grace of God that declares us holy are so often accused of - that we consider it a license to live in sin and do no 'works' or that we suppose we can be sanctified without living a life that is sanctified. the accusation is that we believe we can lead holy lives without actually leading holy lives, a gnostic heresy of a sort, and a false accusation toward anyone who has believed the true gospel of my Christ -- because instead, we do good works and are impelled to do them, the difference being that they are motivated now out of love and in righteous reply to what has been ascribed to us through His Living Mercy and the power of the cross, not out of dread, in order to earn or to keep the gift that was given to us on the basis of faith. 
 

is an entropic principle established in the scripture? yes: 

Where no oxen are, the crib is clean:
but much increase is by the strength of the ox.
(Proverbs 14:4) 

by implication ((and isn't this funny? who says no humor in the Good Book??)) the crib is not clean when the oxen are present; its disorder is increased. and present in us is a great Ox - the Spirit who is the seal upon us and earnest, which prepares us and empowers us toward every good work set before us, as predestined for us be part in, prepared for us by the Lord. the 'demon' suggests that the saved may ignore what was prepared for us, that the works can be accomplished without our hand in them. but -- 

For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. 
(Ephesians 2:10) 

the scripture says otherwise, and the 2nd law says otherwise. work is done by applied forces across distances, causing displacements -- the force of the Spirit, the distance of non-negative, non-zero time, and the displacement of the need by the fulfilling of it as servants of the Lord of Hosts, that we may be children of our Father, who meets every need abundantly in His time, with substance, not mere words 

But Jesus said to him,
"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." 
(Luke 9:62)

The error of Maxwell's experiment is that he introduced a demon (or an intelligently designed valve) in an attempt to find a fault with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.  If a demon is introduced, even an infinitely small demon, it must be accounted for thermodynamically.  If an intelligent valve is introduced, it must have programming to work, and it is itself, performing work.

I don't claim to be as intelligent as Maxwell, but I have a fairly high IQ.  But more importantly, I've been exposed to a wealth of experiences and intellectual teachers over the years, from all over the world.  I see a perfect marriage of God's created universe and the Bible, His inspired words.  You quoted maybe my favorite Bible passage, Ephesians 2:8-10.  I found many interesting nuggets of gold in your writing, and a few things maybe I would argue with.  But the argument presented as you have is not intended for me, but for those intellectuals, or maybe pseudointellectuals sitting on the fence.  I applaud your tenacity and skill in your presentation.  Well done sir.  May it be well received.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 hours ago, DARRELX said:

I would say it is a lot of work for nothing if you end up at the start. 

My question is, is it work if we do not sweat?

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Sweat is "natures" way of cooling us off.  It's a natural process.  We are expending energy, transferring heat, converting the moisture in our bodies to sweat.  If you try this at home, be sure to replenish your body with plenty of liquids.

My body has many wiring errors, one of which is that I can no longer sweat.  The good: I never have "stinky" feet and never have to use deodorant.  The bad: I am subject to overheating so my time in the sun is limited.