Once saved always saved?

[Guest Teditis]

6 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

Aren't we ALL "believers"??

Yes we are... even if we disagree on a point or two... this should not divide the brethren.

[RealPresence]

30 minutes ago, Teditis said:

Tha

  
 

[RealPresence]

17 minutes ago, Teditis said:

No, Not merely "obeys", but does the will of the Father... there's a difference.

But the point is that 1 John gives us the promise that whosoever is born of God overcometh the world...  and this is done by Faith.

And that message is repeated throughout the NT... as is the idea that those that fall away, like the seeds on bad ground that sprouted

yet never endured, never had Salvation to begin with.

FALSE.
First of all - obedience of faith IS doing the will of the Father.

You're also wrong about not being able to lose faith.  The following verses are about precisely just that:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN  in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.  How can they lose what they neverhad?
 

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER  receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge”used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE  their salvation by their own doing.

 

You cannot have an "Epognosei" of Christ " without having been IN Christ.
That's what "Epignosei" means.  It means a FULL, EXPERIENTIAL knowledge - not just a "gnosis" or "oida", which is just a knowledge of familiarity.

[RealPresence]

19 minutes ago, Teditis said:

N

***SYSTEM ERROR***

[RealPresence]

20 minutes ago, Teditis said:

No, Not merely "obeys", but does the will of the Father... there's a difference.

But the point is that 1 John gives us the promise that whosoever is born of God overcometh the world...  and this is done by Faith.

And that message is repeated throughout the NT... as is the idea that those that fall away, like the seeds on bad ground that sprouted

yet never endured, never had Salvation to begin with.

***SYSTEM ERROR***

[whatdoIwant2callmyself]

29 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

No - it wasn't supposed to be.  
However, there are many anti-Catholics here like who turned it INTO one.

What's the best way to handle such a situation? What did our Father inspire us to do in situations like that?

 

"Make no friendship with an angry man, and with a furious man do not go, lest you learn his ways and set a snare for your soul." (Proverbs 22:24-25)

 

"I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised; so shall I be saved from my enemies" (Psalm 18:3).

[whatdoIwant2callmyself]

1 hour ago, RealPresence said:

"If no one can remove us from Jesus hand, then that would include ourselves as well. We are his eternally."

This is a false statement.
If only YOUR acceptance of God's grace can save you - then only YOUR rejection of Him can cause you to lose your salvation.

God is not some sort of Cosmic Rapist who forces His love on us.  
He freely gives it to us and allows us to freely accept or freely reject it.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN  in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.  How can they lose what they never had?
 

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER  receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

 

 

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

 

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE  their salvation by their own doing.


2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness or they will LOSE their "secure position".

 

 

 

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.

This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

 

I would gently admonish your first observations concerning your remark that God is not a cosmic rapist. Not a thing in my remarks, nor anything in scripture that supports eternal salvation , implies any such thing. Nor warrants any allusion.

 

That being said, I accept that you believe your salvation is something you must work to keep. That however, is not what the scriptures say.

 

We are regenerated in Christ through the mercy of God's grace. Everything Christ did on the cross was to assure us eternal security in the father through Christ and his sacrifice on the cross.

We have passed from death, dead in our sins as the unrepentant sinner, unto eternal life by God's grace through our repentance, redemption, rebirth, and renewal in Christ as new creations.  We cannot fall out of that covenant that Jesus died to seal for us.

John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

 

John 6:47-50  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

[Heb 13:8]

On 12/10/2016 at 7:06 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No not really, but that's ok. Let's depart here. This is exhausting. Goodbye.

 

5 hours ago, RealPresence said:

It's always exhausting to be proven wrong.

The Gospel is what it is.  
It does not conform to what YOU think it should be . . .

 

[RealPresence]

1 hour ago, Teditis said:

No

***SYSTEM ERROR***

[RealPresence]

1 hour ago, whatdoIwant2callmyself said:

I would gently admonish your first observations concerning your remark that God is not a cosmic rapist. Not a thing in my remarks, nor anything in scripture that supports eternal salvation , implies any such thing. Nor warrants any allusion.

That being said, I accept that you believe your salvation is something you must work to keep. That however, is not what the scriptures say.

We are regenerated in Christ through the mercy of God's grace. Everything Christ did on the cross was to assure us eternal security in the father through Christ and his sacrifice on the cross.

We have passed from death, dead in our sins as the unrepentant sinner, unto eternal life by God's grace through our repentance, redemption, rebirth, and renewal in Christ as new creations.  We cannot fall out of that covenant that Jesus died to seal for us.

John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:47-50  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

And unless you can refute the passages I presented - you must learn how to work them into CONTEXT with the verses YOU presented.
These verses I presented show that you can LOSE it all.  To assume that you can't is the height of Protestant arrogance . . .