The Gathering of the Elect Is the Second Resurrection

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

My rebuttal was very clear John does not see them having eternal life

No it doesn't.

You did not produce anything that John refutes Scripture in 1Co 15.

Nor is it very clear at all, and anytime someone tells me it is - I know it's not, and I know it's just their prior conclusion.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

where are the many rooms in the imagery of Rev 7?

There you go again, Jesus never said He was going to issue them a room key at a hotel.  He said He would prepare a place for them.

They are placed.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

28 minutes ago, inchrist said:

John states Christ still needs to lead them to living waters?

Actually he doesn't say Jesus NEEDS to lead them to Living Waters IN ORDER TO HAVE IMMORTAL AND IMPERISHABLE BODIES.

Those they receive when they are either resurrected from the grave, or taken up if they remain and are left (after the Great Tribulation).

As to places, the Great Multitude JUST GOT THERE - in the Temple, in Heaven.  They haven't even had the wedding feast of the Lamb yet...  sheesh.  Some people want to make mountains out of molehills and choke on a gnat.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

THAT'S FOR EMPHASIS.

Anyway, you have nothing to offer, and this is getting repetitive, which is as frustrating as talking to a wall, so as I feel my JOY slipping away; I bid YOU adieu.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Quote

Just bold it

OKAY.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh! God is up in the clouds making it rain and shine.  Yes, I know that's what you teach.  Thank-you, I already understand quite a bit on the Kingdom of Heaven means; enough to know that when John goes to the third Heaven, he's not in outer space.

Shalom, Marcus.

Of course, John did not go to outer space; the New Jerusalem (currently being built IN outer space [Ierousaleem epouranioo]) "comes down from God OUT OF THE SKY (ek tou ouranou) to the earth!" (See Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:1-3.)

Revelation 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell (tent; camp out) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

Good. I'm glad you understood about God making it rain and shine, but in truth, you DON'T know much about the Kingdom FROM THE SKY. This is NOT a Kingdom that is "off-world!"

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`).
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Somehow, in all the prophecies, you've missed this point! The Kingdom of heaven is not a Kingdom IN "Heaven!" It is a Kingdom that comes FROM "heaven"; it comes FROM "the sky," just as and when the KING comes back FROM "the sky!"

Luke said in Acts 1:

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

They weren't "gazing up into the place where God's throne was"; they were "gazing up into the SKY!" They lost Him behind a cloud! So, the question and prophecy in verse 11 was, "You men from Galilee, why are you just standing here, gazing up into the sky? This same Yeshua` whom is taken up from you into the sky, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into the sky." Don't make it harder or more "spiritual" than it needs to be!

Notice, too, that Yeshua` NEVER said that there wouldn't be a restoration of the kingdom to Israel; He just said that it wasn't for them to know when it would be restored!

So, when one reads Luke 24:50-51,

Luke 24:50-51
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky").
KJV

one should realize that this is a parallel passage to Acts 1:6-9.

Instead, Yeshua` HIMSELF gave us this parable:

Luke 19:11-15, 26-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
...
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

Again, we are NEVER told to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" We are told several times to anticipate the RESURRECTION! Why would that be? Well, obviously, we must have our bodies back to be complete! (I believe that we ARE our bodies and that we DON'T EXIST unless we are resurrected, but we'll just shelve that for now. At the very least, we are incomplete without our bodies.)

Regarding Mark 12:25, of course God's messengers are in the sky! Revelation makes use of a word that ONLY occurs there - mesouraneema:

Revelation 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
KJV

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV

Starting with the last passage first, obviously birds fly in the AIR! Thus, the word "mesouraneema" refers to the ATMOSPHERE! One might not think that 8:13 and 14:6-7 have anything to do with the air, but a "loud voice" is only heard in the AIR! A movie was once advertised, "In space, no one can hear you scream!" And, it's true! In a vacuum, sound does not transmit. Sound needs the air molecules to propagate!

So, it should come as no surprise that...

Mark 12:24-27
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
KJV

These are the messengers who are in the sky, like those in Revelation above! And, don't forget what Hebrews said:

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits (Greek: leitourgika pneumata = "publicly-functional winds"), sent forth to minister (Greek: diakonian = "to wait upon; to run errands") for them who shall be heirs of salvation (recipients of the rescue)?
KJV

NT:3010 leitourgikos (li-toorg-ik-os'); from the same as NT:3008; functional publicly ("liturgic"); i.e. beneficient:
KJV - ministering.

NT:3008 leitourgeoo (li-toorg-eh'-o); from NT:3011; to be a public servant, i.e. (by analogy) to perform religious or charitable functions (worship, obey, relieve):
KJV - minister.

NT:3011 leitourgos (li-toorg-os'); from a derivative of NT:2992 and NT:2041; a public servant, i.e. a functionary in the Temple or Gospel, or (genitive case) a worshipper (of God) or benefactor (of man):
KJV - minister (-ed).

NT:1248 diakonia (dee-ak-on-ee'-ah); from NT:1249; attendance (as a servant, etc.); figuratively (eleemosynary) aid, (official) service (especially of the Christian teacher, or techn. of the diaconate):
KJV - (ad-) minister (-ing, -tration, -try), office, relief, service (-ing).

NT:1249 diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os); probably from an obsolete diakoo (to run on errands; compare NT:1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):
KJV - deacon, minister, servant.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Where are "winds" if not in the "air?" In the "atmosphere?" In the "SKY?"

When Yeshua` said the words in John 14:1-3, He NEVER said that He was going to take them TO that place that He was going to prepare for them; He promised them that when He returned He would receive them to Himself and they'd never be parted from Him again! John said in Revelation that this place He was going to prepare for them, the New Jerusalem, would land on the New Earth, AFTER the Fire and the Great White Throne Judgment, when all things were made new!

It is only an ASSUMPTION that He would take them to the place that He went to prepare for them!

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-3, Paul tells us that the man he's talking about (possibly himself) was SNATCHED AWAY (Greek: harpagenta) UNTIL (Greek: heoos) the third sky, the same "third sky" as mentioned in 2 Peter 3:3-13! To snatch someone away to a different time (usually in a vision) is EXACTLY how God would reveal the future to His prophets!

And, "paradise" (Greek: paradeisos = Hebrew: pardeec) means a "GARDEN OF TREES!" - an "ORCHARD!" And, this orchard showcases the Tree of Life! Now, I know this might be difficult, but bear with me:

Here's the logic: Yeshua` said,

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst (middle) of the paradise of God.
KJV

And, John later said, still speaking of the New Jerusalem,

Revelation 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it (the city), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Therefore, the city, the New Jerusalem, is the location of the "ORCHARD" including the "tree of life." Since the tree of life is found in the middle of the street and on either side of the river of the water of life, this ORCHARD - this PARADISE - is also in the middle of the street and on either side of the river of the water of life within the New Jerusalem! The medians of the street(s) of the city ARE, therefore, the PARADISE!

That's enough for now. I'll deal with the other verses you've quoted later, and then in another post I'll give you the verses you've requested.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Post all you want Roy, I am amused at how you rationalize it all, but I'm not swayed a bit.

I can only imagine what lies after this material world, this "Heaven" which existed and came before any of what we even know came into being.  

For you to make your construct of what Heaven is, to define it's Kingdom, and do so with both in purely physical terms of creation; ignores that where Jesus is now existed before earth even was, much less its atmosphere which came later.

I prefer an eschatological rendering:
3rd Heaven: In the Presence of God the Father, the original Temple, and more which defies my ability to comprehend it all.
2nd Heaven: The Glass Ceiling, right next to God; where those martyred for their faith wait impatiently.
1st Heaven: Paradise: set in garden terms, a place of rest: Abraham's bosom.  Where the Dead await, knowing nothing.
.....Next to it: Hades, a hot, dry place of torment, separated from Paradise by a chasm.
.....Below: the Abyss - a place, perhaps at that the bottom of that chasm, where spirits from the time of Noah are imprisoned.

All are in the spiritual realm, more real than what we have here and now, which will disappear, eventually.
 

[Retrobyter]

On September 15, 2016 at 11:27 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Post all you want Roy, I am amused at how you rationalize it all, but I'm not swayed a bit.

I can only imagine what lies after this material world, this "Heaven" which existed and came before any of what we even know came into being.  

For you to make your construct of what Heaven is, to define it's Kingdom, and do so with both in purely physical terms of creation; ignores that where Jesus is now existed before earth even was, much less its atmosphere which came later.

I prefer an eschatological rendering:
3rd Heaven: In the Presence of God the Father, the original Temple, and more which defies my ability to comprehend it all.
2nd Heaven: The Glass Ceiling, right next to God; where those martyred for their faith wait impatiently.
1st Heaven: Paradise: set in garden terms, a place of rest: Abraham's bosom.  Where the Dead await, knowing nothing.
.....Next to it: Hades, a hot, dry place of torment, separated from Paradise by a chasm.
.....Below: the Abyss - a place, perhaps at that the bottom of that chasm, where spirits from the time of Noah are imprisoned.

All are in the spiritual realm, more real than what we have here and now, which will disappear, eventually.

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

You ARE aware that much of this thinking about "Heaven" comes from the influence of Greek philosophy in the 2nd through the 5th centuries, aren't you? Have you ever read the Catholic understanding of "Heaven," the Beatific Vision? It's well explained in the early chapters of The Happiness of Heaven by a Father of the Society of Jesus by F. J. Boudreaux. (I got it free from the library on Kindle.)

Another site you might want to check out is Christianity's Platonic heaven. Here's an excerpt:

Quote

Augustine

The famous theologian Augustine (354 AD) was very heavily influenced by Plato. Augustine’s De Civitate Dei has been called “the ripest fruit of the inward union of Christian and Platonic wisdom”[11] Augustine went so far to say in his Confessions that he thanked God that he became familiar with Plato first, because had he not, he probably would never have been able to receive the Gospel.[12] With such a high view of Plato, it’s no surprise, then, that Augustine’s view of heaven was so heavily affected by him. As Benedict Viviano says of Augustine,

“We need only note that Augustine was strongly influenced by neo-Platonic philosophy and has even read Plotinus and Prophyry… This philosophy was highly spiritual and other-worldly, centered on the one and the eternal, treating the material and the historically contingent as inferior stages in the ascent of the soul to union with the one.”[13]

Augustine’s Spiritual View of Heaven

Augustine “was attracted to the spiritual interpretation of the kingdom.” For Augustine, “the kingdom of God consists in eternal life with God in heaven.”[14] Michael Vlach adds that “it was Augustine’s spiritual view of the kingdom that also contributed to his belief that the church is the fulfillment of the thousands year reign of Christ.[15] It was then his spiritualized view which became the accepted Roman Catholic view, which remains the dominant view within the Catholic Church today, as well a popular view within the protestant church at large, and general Western secular thought. Thus the origin of Christianity’s unbiblical view of heaven can be found in the church’s adoption of key concepts from Plato.

So, it would be a very good idea to investigate where your belief-system of "going to heaven" started!

The same author of this site, Shawn Nelson, also said,

Quote

 

The Biblical View

While the idea of being set free from our bodies might be tantalizing to some, the Bible presents a vastly different concept of heaven. According to the Bible, heaven is actually a restoration of our physical universe, one which includes a new, resurrected Earth. Instead of dwelling in an abstract, otherworldy place, this newly resurrected Earth will be familiar to us, only much better. It will be a place where culture and society continue to enjoy being productive. We will be living in resurrected physical bodies which dwell inside time and space. Instead of sitting around with nothing to do, we will actively serve and worship God by helping others much like we do today. It will be a fascinating place where we get to spend an eternitylearning and discovering the wonderful new creation of God.

The concept of a resurrected universe is the overarching theme of the entire Bible. God cursed the ground at the Fall, at which time the earth and the entire universe was changed. At that time “the creation was subjected to frustration.” (Romans 8:20) The universe which was previously declared by God to be good (Genesis 1:31) had been subjected to entropy as the direct result of man’s disobedience, and would from that time undergo a breaking down process. The Biblical hope, however, in sending the Messiah (Genesis 3:15) would be that Messiah would undo the works of the devil (1 John 3:8), which includes not only redeeming mankind from the penalty of sin, but also restoring God’s physical creation to its perfect state before the Fall. At that time, “the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:21) The Bible begins with the Fall of Genesis and ends with the Restoration of Revelation where Heaven, the New Jerusalem, will be united with Earth and “the dwelling of God (will be) with men, and he will live with them” and creation will be restored. (Revelation 21:2-3)

 

So, you see, it's not just me. Others have come to this conclusion, as well, and from a historical investigation.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

36 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

You ARE aware that much of this thinking about "Heaven" comes from the influence of Greek philosophy in the 2nd through the 5th centuries, aren't you? 

MY thinking did not come from Ancient Greece, or mythology, or popular conception.

My concept of Heaven is drawn from what limited information there is in the Bible, coupled with an image from the Ethiopian book of Enoch, and in light of the fact that before there was a sky, Heaven was.

As we are created in His Image, and even the Temple is a poor copy of what is in Heaven, Heaven to me is more "real" than this real world.

So the place where Jesus is now, cannot be the sky, or space, or anything of this world you like to point to with your word study, because where He came from and returned to existed before there was any sky or space at all.

 And that point is something I think you miss about what I am saying in my rejection of your interpretation.

[Retrobyter]

18 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

MY thinking did not come from Ancient Greece, or mythology, or popular conception.

My concept of Heaven is drawn from what limited information there is in the Bible, coupled with an image from the Ethiopian book of Enoch, and in light of the fact that before there was a sky, Heaven was.

As we are created in His Image, and even the Temple is a poor copy of what is in Heaven, Heaven to me is more "real" than this real world.

So the place where Jesus is now, cannot be the sky, or space, or anything of this world you like to point to with your word study, because where He came from and returned to existed before there was any sky or space at all.

 And that point is something I think you miss about what I am saying in my rejection of your interpretation.

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

How do you know that there was a "Heaven before there was a sky?"