Free Will?

[Deez131]

Question! 

Why let those God CHOSE to go to Hell, in anguish and scorching heat for a long and painful entirety, burning with out water, with all God's wrath apon them, to live, If it wasn't there fault? God CHOSE to put them to hell, it wasn't like it was their fault God rejected them, God wanted them there, and if you say he didn't, God's actions show other wise because he didn't want to adopt them, why create them if they had no choice in the matter? God Destoned them to a doomed destruction to Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who said it wasn't their fault? Don't they fall under original sin? ANYONE who falls under original sin IS going to hell unless they are saved. Period. We all deserve justice (hell) for our part in Adam's choice (he WAS our perfect representitive). Some of us receive mercy instead. That's the beauty of grace. We don't deserve it. It's easy to make that term into a cliche. "By God's grace." But do we really understand that it IS actually by His grace. He could just choose to leave us to our sinful ways - and it would be a just thing for Him to do. We deserve it. Instead, HE chooses to save His sheep. That's mercy.

[pretzelperson]

It's not that I do take a Calvinist view but how as Christians do we take two seemingly contrary ideas from the bible and mesh them to coincide with the bible's teachings and the idea of free will?

While I accept the lord Jesus as my savior I'm not sure I can accept the total omniscience of God if we truly have free will.

Any other passages to study you can recommend? This is where the logic side and the faith side clash for me.

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I "feel your pain". I don't think it is possible for me to reconcile this issue. Both are true: we chose God and he chooses us--somehow it works. As has been demonstrated many times here the Bible teaches that God's children have been "chosen" and the Bible also teaches that God gave his only son so that who ever believes in Him will have everlasting life.

[Trinity]

Yes i know where you are coming from Deez, yes but By God not chosing them to enter Heaven he chose them to go to Hell

Alright, Lets become little kids again for a second Just for a second

I am on the play ground and we are picking teams, i picked you over Johny over there, I chose for Johny not to be on my team, by picking you.

Ok you can grow up again lol

So, why let those people be born if God already sealed there fait, before they were even born?

So... this is what i believe it to be like this:

Bill picks Jim right away because he goes into the future and he knows Jim really wants to be on his team so Bill picks Jim, Jim made the choise for Bill to be on his team, Because Bill knew before the game Jim wanted to be on Bills team, its still free will on Jim's part, so before the game Jim knows who he is going to chose, because he knows who really wants to be on his team.

[Deez131]

Trinity,Mar 9 2005, 08:50 AM]

Yes i know where you are coming from Deez, yes but By God not chosing them to enter Heaven he chose them to go to Hell

Yes. In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell. He says they are "prepared for destruction." Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know. I have an "Ask God" list. That question is on it. As far as I can tell, He does a lot of things, including NOT saving some --- for demonstration.

Put it this way: Why did God have Abraham bring Isaac to the mountain, and almost kill him, and stop him right before he did it? Why does he allow any process to go on in our lives? Demonstration would be one reason. To ourselves and to others. You might say, well, who was God trying to demonstrate to? No one was up on that mountain to see what was going on? How about Isaac? I'll bet that had a huge impact on his life! God uses us to work out His will....and sometimes that involves good things happening to us...and sometimes bad things. But, like Romans 8:28 says: God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

So... this is what i believe it to be like this:

Bill picks Jim right away because he goes into the future and he knows Jim really wants to be on his team so Bill picks Jim, Jim made the choise for Bill to be on his team, Because Bill knew before the game Jim wanted to be on Bills team, its still free will on Jim's part, so before the game Jim knows who he is going to chose, because he knows who really wants to be on his team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is how I see it: Bill picks Jim for whatever reason he decides to (which has nothing to do with Jim's ability). Bill supernaturally changes Jim's heart (or his will) to want to be on Bill's team. It's still a free choice on Jim's part, but there is no way that he would choose any other team because Bill's allready worked in him supernaturally to make sure that Jim is on his team. Jim is happy as heck because he knows he made the right choice and he's on a winning team. It's kind of hard to use human analogys because there are just too many differences in power between us and God.

I think a way to clear this whole thing up is to go to the heart of the differences we're having in this discussion. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I take it that you believe it is within man's power as an unregenerate sinner, to choose God. I don't believe that. I believe that it is not within our power to be able to make a choice for Christ UNLESS He's already changed our hearts, thus we would be saved before the verbal words or "accepting" Him came out of our mouth. I know I'm gonna get the arguement from someone about how God commands us to repent and believe - and that He wouldn't tell us to do that unless it was within our power. But WHO CAN repent and believe? I believe the Bible makes it clear that only His sheep know and can respond to His voice. John 10: 25-30: Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

It's a perfect plan. The Father gave His Son a gift of His people. His Son did the work of salvation for His people on the cross. The Holy Spirit does the work of bringing His people to Him by His Spirit. It's a perfect balance of the Trinity working in perfect harmony.

Just to back that point up a little, look at the 6th chapter of John (verses 37-39) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. Verse 44 is pretty clear as well: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. We're not ABLE to come to Him unless we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. That would pretty much make it a sure thing that the people God chooses WILL be saved because it's Him that is doing the drawing.

I could keep going, but I know this is getting long. There's so much that intertwines in all this stuff that it makes it difficult to just cover one thing. That's what I'm telling you about all of this fitting together for me. To me, it all fits together and makes perfect sense Biblically.

Denise

[Khristeeanos]

Yes.  In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell.  He says they are "prepared for destruction."  Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know.  I have an "Ask God" list.  That question is on it.    As far as I can tell, He does a lot of things, including NOT saving some --- for demonstration.

Romans 9 is talking about the NATION OF ISRAEL, not persons.

The doctrine of predestination is Biblical - God predestined a plan that *whoever* believes will be saved.

The doctrine of predetermined salvation is taught NO WHERE in the Bible.

[Guest Jacee]

I too believe that it was Jesus Christ who was predestined to come for our salvation. But, I see something in the scriptures that I don't quite understand fully and that is that there are sons of God, and sons of Belial. Whether that means that is predetermined or not, I don't know.

One thing I do know. Satan and his minions can speak into our mind and they do. So can angels. And Holy Spirit has a loud voice to us at times. Gods word is living and active. It cuts and divides soul and spirit. So when we speak it, it does it's work for which it is intended, when the presence of God is on it.

And I see those who have been chosen, such as Paul and the disciples. And the word says also whosoever will may come. The spirit and the bride say come. He is always calling us. All of us for it isn't the will of God that any should perish. And I understand also why David would say that he would rather fall into the hands of the living God, then into the hands of men.

I guess what I am saying is that we can trust Him. His judgements are good. And I think also that He is moving for us to know and receive Him, more than we give Him credit for.

[Deez131]

DIME Ministries,Mar 10 2005, 06:23 AM]

Romans 9 is talking about the NATION OF ISRAEL, not persons.

The doctrine of predestination is Biblical - God predestined a plan that *whoever* believes will be saved.

The doctrine of predetermined salvation is taught NO WHERE in the Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One thing that tends to make conversations like this frustrating is when someone just throws something out there with no explanation or backup.

In talking about the problem of Israel, Paul states very clearly that God has a right to choose some and a right to reject others

[Trinity]

Maybe God Predestined us to be ignorant about predestination

Sorry just had to say that

But it was spoke with all the love in the world

.........

[Guest eagle30]

Put a mouse inside a maze, and that mouse serves no purpose. Put a mouse inside a maze, and put cheese at the end of it, the mouse has purpose. Find the cheese at the end of the maze. But is that his purpose or the purpose of the person who put the mouse in their. The mouse has purpose, but its a false purpose. When you die and go to heaven, is it you that has suceeded, or is it your god.

Their is no evidence in this world to support the notion that their is a god. Their is no evidence in this world to deny the notion that their is a god. Nothing to support either claim, be it from the bible or a science lab.

If their is god who created all we know and all we are, then their is only one(just my assumption). So why does every religion think that they are right, and with such conviction. Blind faith is not a bad thing, but sometimes it can do just that, blind you.

One thing that seperates man from all the other species on the world, is our ability to reason. If we have the ability to reason, then so should the god that created us.

Lets play fiction and pretend that all Christians are right. Their religion and their god is the true one. You guys were right about Jesus and all that good stuff. Do you mean to tell me, that only christians will be able to get into heaven. Their are alot of good people in this world who are not christian. They live a good and righteous life and are sent to eternal hell, solely because they are not christian.

Think of all those little villages in Africa where the word christianity means nothing to them. Its not their fault they are not going to die christian, so why do they deserve to go to hell. Thats not reasonable. A god who created all of this would have to know that.

Lets turn it around. Say all the muslims are right. Somehow they cracked the caper, and allah turned out to be the almighty one. When you die, do you deserve to go to hell just because you were worshiping the wrong god. Wouldnt it be a nicer thought to think that allah would say "well you werent a muslim and you never traveled to mecca, but you were a good person, welcome to heaven.

Thats the one thing that annoys me about religion. They all think their right. But it would be impossible for that to be. But yet none are open to the notion that they could be wrong. Blind faith can blind you.

I personally dont believe that their is a god, but i cant say with any certainty that their isnt. I am not part of any religion, so i am open to all.

The straight line the world has to walk for anyone of us to be here is amazing. Its just about impossible to be born if you think about it. All your ancestors have to line up exactly the way they did, for you to be born. Since way back when every single one of them had to meet. Those exact people. Those exact points in time.

Which brings me to predestination. Doesnt the world have to be. None of us could have been born in 1650. Its impossible. Some of the people needed to create us werent even around yet. You cant be born before your grandparents are. Their is only a small time frame in which the chance of you being born can occur(thats if all those people meet).

Now once they all line up and your parents meet, the real tricky part begins. Your parents have to have sex and concieve you at that exact second in time. Once they concieved YOU that day, they could never recieve you again, cause you are already born. And if thats true, then they could have never had you before that moment, because then YOU wouldnt be YOU.

Why cant we all just admit that we dont know what this thing is we live in. It is uncomprehendable and totally not understandable. No religion or science will ever be able to figure out this world. They are both their to do the same thing. To make life understandable and give us a reason for being here.

Who knows what happens when we die. No one living has ever been dead, so no one has undeanialable proof of what will happen.

[other one]

[

Yes.  In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell.  He says they are "prepared for destruction."  Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know.  I have an "Ask God" list.  That question is on it.    As far as I can tell, He does a lot of things, including NOT saving some --- for demonstration.

Denise

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Deez, chapeter 9 carries on through a couple of chapters past. I think if you wil look at chapter 11 about verse 25 you will see that even those who he has harden their hearts have some form of mercy from him.

The hardening of hearts of them and even pharoh are dealing with this life and not necessarily eternity. We have no way of knowing, and these verses in chapter 11 put a really big question in my mind.

I have to get ready to take a trip to LA in the morning so I am short on tiime. I'll be studying and praying over this subject next week and may post some more.