The Fossil Record God Left For Us, Not to Darwinists

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Quote

 

There's clearly some evidences in the fossil record doubters here have not really considered...

"The Cretaceous–Paleogene (K–Pg) extinction event,^[a] also known as the Cretaceous–Tertiary (K–T) extinction, was a mass extinction of some three-quarters of the plant and animal species onEarth that occurred over a geologically short period of time^[2][3][4] approximately 66 million years ago.^[3] With the exception of some ectothermic species like the leatherback sea turtle andcrocodiles, no tetrapods weighing more than 55 pounds (25 kilos) survived.^[5] It marked the end of the Cretaceous period and with it, the entire Mesozoic Era, opening the Cenozoic Era that continues today.

In the geologic record, the K–Pg event is marked by a thin layer of sediment called the K–Pg boundary, which can be found throughout the world in marine and terrestrial rocks. The boundary clay shows high levels of the metal iridium, which is rare in the Earth's crust but abundant in asteroids.^[6]

As originally proposed in 1980 by a team of scientists led by Luis Alvarez, it is now generally thought that the K–Pg extinction was triggered by a massive comet or asteroid impact 66 million years ago^[3] and its catastrophic effects on the global environment, including a lingering impact winter that made it impossible for plants and plankton to carry out photosynthesis.^[7][8] The impact hypothesis, also known as the Alvarez hypothesis, was bolstered by the discovery of the 180-kilometre-wide (112 mi) Chicxulub crater in the Gulf of Mexico in the early 1990s,^[9] which provided conclusive evidence that the K–Pg boundary clay represented debris from an asteroid impact.^[10] The fact that the extinctions occurred at the same time as the impact provides strong situational evidence that the K–Pg extinction was caused by the asteroid.^[10] It was possibly accelerated by the creation of the Deccan Traps. However, some scientists maintain the extinction was caused or exacerbated by other factors, such as volcanic eruptions,^[11] climate change, or sea level change, separately or together." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous–Paleogene_extinction_event

 

 

I believe that the flood occurred at the PT boundary when there were even more extinctions. This is when a flood can be seen in the geological record. The later extinctions of the KT event I agree were caused by an impact event.  There was no "gap" in the fossil record during the KT impact event.  Life carried on, even though partly decimated.  It is in no manner any evidence for a "Gap theory".

[ARGOSY]

Quote

 

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).

 

N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

Genesis 1:2 is not referring to the earth laid waste. It is referring to earth already being a wasteland. We do not know if it was always such a wasteland before creation week or if it became a wasteland. Neither does the text refer to any "Lucifer's Flood".   So you are making a few assumptions there, which is NOT a good way to interpret the bible (caps for emphasis only)

2 Peter 3:6 could refer to Noah's flood.  There is nothing in context which refers exclusively to any earlier flood.

Jeremiah is referring to Israel becoming a wasteland unless they repent. Nothing to do with any "Lucifer's flood"

Sorry Hazard, with such incorrect assumptions with your first point, I refuse to go through your other points. If you can point out your best one, I will quickly refute that and save us all a lot of detail. Kindly tell me which of your 19 points is your best one, where your biblical point is clear instead of an assumption.

[Salty]

18 hours ago, Teditis said:

To you perhaps, but it boggles my mind to believe that it would get so cold, so suddenly that it would freeze to death

a mammoth in mid-chew.

Sounds like a heart-attack would be more likely.

The undigested vegetation (buttercups if I recall) in its stomach shows that it did not have time to decay, and especially with the vegetation found in its mouth.

Also, the earth's true magnetic north being about 90 miles off true geographic north could suggest the earth tilted at some point in time.

Heb 12:25-26
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, 'Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.'
KJV

I think too heavy of a reliance upon man's fields of science today can prevent understanding how God was able to do that old shaking of the earth. There's still a lot of things written in God's Word that science has yet to confirm, and probably never will. And anyone can cast that off as never having happened by using some kind of supposition based on 'scientific sounding' theories. At some point the Bible student is still faced with the question of whether to believe God's Word as written or not.

 

 

[Salty]

11 hours ago, hmbld said:

Even with that, one can't support that there was death prior to Genesis 1:2 from any scripture, it is all conjecture.  Even if Adam and Eve were not created immortal, one can't support death happening during creation, for God is creating everything in 7 days, and saying it is very good.  I would have to look, but I believe there is reasonable scriptural support that the animals were not carnivorous, until after the fall.  

The question then must default to when did the devil sin against God?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

By the time the devil (as "that old serpent") is in Eden tempting Eve, he had already fallen sometime before Adam and Eve.

Rev.12:3-4 speaks about the time when the devil ("red dragon") drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him in relation to a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns. It is different than the beast kingdom shown in Rev.13:1-2 which is for the end and is to have "ten crowns".

Thus our Heavenly Father already showed in His Word how far back it was when Satan first rebelled against Him. Hebrews 2:14 also shows the concept of 'death' was assigned to the devil.

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
KJV

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Salty

[SavedOnebyGrace]

11 hours ago, hmbld said:

Even with that, one can't support that there was death prior to Genesis 1:2 from any scripture, it is all conjecture.  Even if Adam and Eve were not created immortal, one can't support death happening during creation, for God is creating everything in 7 days, and saying it is very good.  I would have to look, but I believe there is reasonable scriptural support that the animals were not carnivorous, until after the fall.  

Read again from the link I provided.  It goes into the full creation account.  In the time I posted that link, to the time you responded, have you really thought about what the Bible actually says?  I admit that I don't agree with everything that is written there.  But let the Holy Spirit be your Guide to all that is true.

[Salty]

4 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

 

 

Yes the earth existed before creation week. But there is no indication, biblically or geologically, that there were two biological eras. We just have one biological era from the pre-Cambrian through until today.. The dominant plants and animals  flow from one period to the other according to the prevalent conditions, but there is no gap in the fossil record. None.   Although the dominant species do change, always there has been the same wide range of existing Kinds since creation week, becoming gradually smaller through extinctions. This is the reality of the fossil record. And fits in with the bible.

Even the KT extinctions have the same situation, dinosaurs lost their dominance, mammals gained dominance.  But this is explained by two events, an impact event reduced dinosaur survival while ark animals were just starting to gain significant numbers on the planet and therefore became more dominant through breeding since the ark.  There is no fossil gap despite the extensive extinctions.  The fossil record does not agree with the gap theory. Neither is it clear in the bible.

The true reality of the fossil record is that it has MANY gaps in it, not just the one between the Cretaceous and beginning of the Paleocene periods that made dinosaurs extinct.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Salty

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Yes the earth existed before creation week. But there is no indication, biblically or geologically, that there were two biological eras. We just have one biological era from the pre-Cambrian through until today.. The dominant plants and animals  flow from one period to the other according to the prevalent conditions, but there is no gap in the fossil record. None.   Although the dominant species do change, always there has been the same wide range of existing Kinds since creation week, becoming gradually smaller through extinctions. This is the reality of the fossil record. And fits in with the bible.

Even the KT extinctions have the same situation, dinosaurs lost their dominance, mammals gained dominance.  But this is explained by two events, an impact event reduced dinosaur survival while ark animals were just starting to gain significant numbers on the planet and therefore became more dominant through breeding since the ark.  There is no fossil gap despite the extensive extinctions.  The fossil record does not agree with the gap theory. Neither is it clear in the bible.

There's no reason for God to change His plan.  God, being outside of the dimension of time as I successfully argued before, would know of Lucifer's rebellion before Lucifer knew he was going to rebel.  Also, the laws of the universe, like: the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Laws of Thermodynamics; the laws of physics and mathematics; the relationship between space, time, gravity and mass; etc.  God would not change these parameters we now live under before and after a "gap", because creation was good, and it fit God's plan for the angels, mankind and even animals.  There's a purpose in God's plan.  I'm good with that.

[Enoch2021]

14 hours ago, hmbld said:

Even with that, one can't support that there was death prior to Genesis 1:2 from any scripture, it is all conjecture.  

Conjecture??  It's 'a bit' more than that...

If there was Death (disease, suffering, thorns) before 'The Fall'; THEN...

It takes the Entire Doctrine Of Salvation --- Jesus' Sacrifice (Kinsmen Redeemer), to the WOODSHED and Bludgeons in Senseless !!! 

 

These threads are getting 'pretty scary' to be quite frank.

 

regards

[ARGOSY]

Quote

The true reality of the fossil record is that it has MANY gaps in it, not just the one between the Cretaceous and beginning of the Paleocene periods that made dinosaurs extinct.

Before and after the KT extinction small furtive mammals were common. I don't see a gap there or anywhere else.

 

[ARGOSY]

19 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

There's no reason for God to change His plan.  God, being outside of the dimension of time as I successfully argued before, would know of Lucifer's rebellion before Lucifer knew he was going to rebel.  Also, the laws of the universe, like: the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Laws of Thermodynamics; the laws of physics and mathematics; the relationship between space, time, gravity and mass; etc.  God would not change these parameters we now live under before and after a "gap", because creation was good, and it fit God's plan for the angels, mankind and even animals.  There's a purpose in God's plan.  I'm good with that.

Sure, but why introduce a theory of a gap if there is no evidence in the bible, or in geology, that there was two sets of life.   It's all conjecture, possibly based on the fact that early signs of human existence are minimal. So Christians feel the need to have a gap to explain why there were no early humans.    I believe human fossils were minimal because most of the pre-flood landscape was too swampy for large human populations. The human population was mainly in Siberia, which was a temperate highland at the time more likely to have mammals and birds unlike the swampy habitats full of amphibians and mega-insects. 

So if one is to look for early human habitation and early mammals it makes sense to look for a vast highland, isolated from the rest of the world. Siberia. That region is now covered in volcanic rock ,  the human cities are difficult to find.