QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Excuse me, but Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven, which is not up in the air, or in outer space, but a different plane of existence altogether.  It is supernatural because it is beyond the "natural" four dimensions of our existence now.

Zechariah 14 is for the Jews.

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Excuse me, but Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven, which is not up in the air, or in outer space, but a different plane of existence altogether.  It is supernatural because it is beyond the "natural" four dimensions of our existence now.

You are perfectly correct.  Now we have a new doctrine about the Rapture manufactured out of thin air (taken to Jerusalem). But is has no merit and no basis in Scripture.  The "Father's house" is in Heaven, and as you say, it is outside of outer space.

First heaven -- atmosphere/stratosphere

Second heaven -- outer space

Third Heaven -- beyond outer space

Just wondering where all these attacks on Heaven are coming from? Probably from the one who was cast out of Heaven and knows that he will be in eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).

[Salty]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Excuse me, but Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven, which is not up in the air, or in outer space, but a different plane of existence altogether.  It is supernatural because it is beyond the "natural" four dimensions of our existence now.

Zechariah 14 is for the Jews.

The view in Rev.7 of the "great multitude" out of all nations is actually a future look during the Millennium of those with Jesus, on the earth at Zion:

These verses go along with the time that Apostle John is seeing them:

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

All those events are Millennium timing events, for that is when that temple will manifest on earth at Jerusalem per Ezekiel 40 forward.

Where Heaven is today is indeed in a separate dimension of existence. It actually is a different dimension than this earthly one. But when the end of this present world happens, and we are all changed to our spiritual bodies, we will live and exist in that heavenly dimension along with... this earthly dimension. God once lived upon this earth as shown in Genesis 2. And He appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 before... He was born in a flesh body through Mary's womb. And He even sat and ate and drank what Abraham provided Him.

So there's been centuries of many simply not understanding this, yet the evidence for it has been written in God's Word all along. Some conclude it means the earth is totally destroyed and they will live upon floating clouds. Others think on another planet, etc. But God's Word shows our Heavenly Father and His Son is going to live here on earth with us, which is why He said in Isaiah 45:18 that He created the earth to be inhabited. The very last verse of Ezekiel 48 shows us the name of the beloved city on earth in final will be, "The LORD is there."

 

[Salty]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Zechariah 14 is for the Jews.

All of God's Word is for Christ's Church like Apostle Paul showed:

Rom 15:4
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
KJV

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

1 Cor 10:11-12
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
KJV

 

Those men who tell you to disregard any Scripture in God's Word are going directly in opposition to what Apostle Paul said above for the Church. Even the events that happened to those in OT times is for an example to us on what not to follow, and that according to Paul.

There's a movement that began back in the 1800's along with Darby's pushing of a pre-trib rapture idea. It's called Ultra-dispensationalism (or Hyper-dispensationalism), and was pushed by the excellent Christian scholar in Britain named E.W. Bullinger. Darby created the Dispensationalist idea, but Bullinger and et al further developed the idea that only Paul's Epistles are relevant for Christ's Church.

The early Church fathers certainly never held to such an idea, nor did Apostle Paul himself push such an idea.

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Salty

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

He said in Isaiah 45:18 that He created the earth to be inhabited.

Yes, but not by the Church. Redeemed and restored Israel, and the saved nations will inhabit the earth.  So what you have posted is patently false.  

Also the Father and the Son will remain in the New Jerusalem eternally, and that city will CERTAINLY NOT be on earth -- it is the size of a continent, but also has three dimensions.  This also means that the eternal home of the Church -- the Wife of the Lamb -- is the New Jerusalem, which will simply hover over the earth.

[Salty]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

Yes, but not by the Church. Redeemed and restored Israel, and the saved nations will inhabit the earth.  So what you have posted is patently false.  

Also the Father and the Son will remain in the New Jerusalem eternally, and that city will CERTAINLY NOT be on earth -- it is the size of a continent, but also has three dimensions.  This also means that the eternal home of the Church -- the Wife of the Lamb -- is the New Jerusalem, which will simply hover over the earth.

It appears you haven't read Ezekiel 44 about the Zadok (the Just). But surely you've read Revelation 5:10 about Jesus making us kings and priests and revealing we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

The Revelation 22 River of the waters and life and Tree of Life are on the earth per Ezekiel 47. The Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters are about the time of Christ's reign with His elect and thereafter when the full Godhead returns to earth.

 

 

[Salty]

28 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Firstly new jerusalem is made out of living stones....secondly there is no hovering.

What is everyone in the millennium going to hover in tabernacles every year when they go to Jerusalem

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

I've heard some Jewish circles putting out this idea of the new Jerusalem hovering in space above the earth like a space station. I don't know where they're getting that from, because it's not written in God's Word. What is written is that the new Jerusalem will be situated on earth where today's Jerusalem is, and will extend upwards 'from' the earth as per Rev.21:16.

[OneLight]

17 minutes ago, Salty said:

I've heard some Jewish circles putting out this idea of the new Jerusalem hovering in space above the earth like a space station. I don't know where they're getting that from, because it's not written in God's Word. What is written is that the new Jerusalem will be situated on earth where today's Jerusalem is, and will extend upwards 'from' the earth as per Rev.21:16.

Shalom Salty,

I would be interested in knowing where in scripture we are told the New Jerusalem will be on the earth?  Rev. 21:16 tells us

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

By this time, everyone will be in the next body, more spiritual and anything else.  Why does the city need to rest on the earth?  Why can't it just hover above the earth?  In all honesty, I have no solid evidence from scripture that tells me one way or the other.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Salty said:

But surely you've read Revelation 5:10 about Jesus making us kings and priests and revealing we shall reign on the earth.

Just as God and Christ reign on earth while in the New Jerusalem, His saints reign with Him from the New Jerusalem. God is presently sovereign over the universe from Heaven.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

15 hours ago, Salty said:

The view in Rev.7 of the "great multitude" out of all nations is actually a future look during the Millennium of those with Jesus, on the earth at Zion:

Ah, actually... NO.

While like the seven Churches which all start at the time of the writing of John's visions have a future promise, we see here the blessed hope we will have in the accomplishment of our faith when we come into our inheritance - which as a treasure, is stored in Heaven.

Furthermore, the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) lays down the broad overview of the end-times.

• The whole point of the Seals is to open the Scroll.  Rev 5:9 - “Worthy are You to take the Scroll and to break its seals;”
• They are described in the order they are opened.
• The whole point of opening them is to open the Scroll.

And may I offer this explanation of the Scroll: They are where the desolations that God has decreed long ago (Dan 9:26) are stored until the end-time of Man's Age of Rule.

1. The sixth Seal includes the precursor sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star celestial sign.
2. When the last Seal is opened, silence ensues.
3. Then the Trumpet Judgments go forth - and the first one has two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath: fire and blood.
4. And the one 'seven' is not complete until the desolations are poured out on the 'desolator'.

In a companion linear narrative to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, is the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven': Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive).

1. Chapter 13 begins by describing the first half of the one 'seven' with the rise of the beast-of-a-nation, the beast-of-a-man, and the false prophet.
2. Chapter 13 then describes the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27, revealing it to be talking image of the anti-Christ = beast-of-a-man.
3. Chapter 13 ends with the revelation of the reason for the Great Tribulation and why it must be shortened to save the Elect from extermination.

Chapter 14 shows God's Response - on the Day of the Lord.

1. It starts with Jesus on the earth just as was foretold in Acts 1:11 and the 144,000 - the firstfruits coming before the Great Multitude with the sixth Seal.
2. Then it reveals the 3 Angels - which is why the wicked of the sixth Seal "know" God is coming for them... just not at that exact moment though.
3. Then after the Great Commission is fulfilled, as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse - there is the Harvest from the clouds (Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17).
4. THEN after the Rapture Harvest are an Angels who supplies the blood, at the direction of the Angel who is in charge of the fire - just like the first Trumpet.
5. The seventh Trumpet's desolation is never told in chapters 4-11.  I put it to you that it is revealed in the Bowls as showing the depth of God's Wrath!
6. The ending of the second half of the one 'seven' is laid out in chapter 16 bringing the timeline up to the final battle which ends the one 'seven'.

The whole point here is to show the similarity between Rev 14:17-20 and Rev 8:7 - and that the Harvest of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation, but well before the ending Bowl Judgments.

In accordance with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, the wheat is taken out to the barn of Heaven, and the tares are burned in the field of this world.

The scene that the Great Multitude are in, is the same as John first described Revelation chapters 4-5.
They are not on the earth; the Father's Throne is in Heaven.
That is the third Heaven of His Presence - where Jesus said He would take us when He returned.