QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Salty]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

Shalom Salty,

I would be interested in knowing where in scripture we are told the New Jerusalem will be on the earth?  Rev. 21:16 tells us

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

By this time, everyone will be in the next body, more spiritual and anything else.  Why does the city need to rest on the earth?  Why can't it just hover above the earth?  In all honesty, I have no solid evidence from scripture that tells me one way or the other.

Study Ezekiel 40 thru 48. It might change your mind.

[Salty]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Ah, actually... NO.

While like the seven Churches which all start at the time of the writing of John's visions have a future promise, we see here the blessed hope we will have in the accomplishment of our faith when we come into our inheritance - which as a treasure, is stored in Heaven.

Those statements include phrases often used by pre-trib rapture folks, like "blessed hope" from Titus 2:13, etc., but it does not signify we are going to be raptured to Heaven.

 

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Furthermore, the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) lays down the broad overview of the end-times.

• The whole point of the Seals is to open the Scroll.  Rev 5:9 - “Worthy are You to take the Scroll and to break its seals;”
• They are described in the order they are opened.
• The whole point of opening them is to open the Scroll.

And may I offer this explanation of the Scroll: They are where the desolations that God has decreed long ago (Dan 9:26) are stored until the end-time of Man's Age of Rule.

1. The sixth Seal includes the precursor sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star celestial sign.
2. When the last Seal is opened, silence ensues.
3. Then the Trumpet Judgments go forth - and the first one has two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath: fire and blood.
4. And the one 'seven' is not complete until the desolations are poured out on the 'desolator'.

In a companion linear narrative to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, is the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven': Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive).

1. Chapter 13 begins by describing the first half of the one 'seven' with the rise of the beast-of-a-nation, the beast-of-a-man, and the false prophet.
2. Chapter 13 then describes the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27, revealing it to be talking image of the anti-Christ = beast-of-a-man.
3. Chapter 13 ends with the revelation of the reason for the Great Tribulation and why it must be shortened to save the Elect from extermination.

Chapter 14 shows God's Response - on the Day of the Lord.

1. It starts with Jesus on the earth just as was foretold in Acts 1:11 and the 144,000 - the firstfruits coming before the Great Multitude with the sixth Seal.
2. Then it reveals the 3 Angels - which is why the wicked of the sixth Seal "know" God is coming for them... just not at that exact moment though.
3. Then after the Great Commission is fulfilled, as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse - there is the Harvest from the clouds (Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17).
4. THEN after the Rapture Harvest are an Angels who supplies the blood, at the direction of the Angel who is in charge of the fire - just like the first Trumpet.
5. The seventh Trumpet's desolation is never told in chapters 4-11.  I put it to you that it is revealed in the Bowls as showing the depth of God's Wrath!
6. The ending of the second half of the one 'seven' is laid out in chapter 16 bringing the timeline up to the final battle which ends the one 'seven'.

The whole point here is to show the similarity between Rev 14:17-20 and Rev 8:7 - and that the Harvest of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation, but well before the ending Bowl Judgments.

In accordance with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, the wheat is taken out to the barn of Heaven, and the tares are burned in the field of this world.

The scene that the Great Multitude are in, is the same as John first described Revelation chapters 4-5.
They are not on the earth; the Father's Throne is in Heaven.
That is the third Heaven of His Presence - where Jesus said He would take us when He returned.

Do you really expect me to respond to all that, because it's irrelevant to what I showed about Revelation 7 and the "great multitude". Since you failed to address the specific verses I quoted from Rev.7, here it is again, and I'll show you line upon line why it is a future look forward of the Millennium timing:

The previous Rev.7:9-14 verses do not tell us what timing that is when John is seeing them stand before The Lamb (Jesus).

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They are standing before the throne serving God in His temple, the temple of Ezekiel 40 forward that is to manifest on earth where Jerusalem is today, and that only happens when Christ's future Millenniun reign begins. Per Rev.21:22 after the Millennium, there is no more temple. The manifesting of the Ezekiel temple in Christ's 1,000 years reign is what the idea in Daniel about the cleansing of the sanctuary for the end is about. Christ will build it, not us (as per Zechariah 6).

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

That is a reference to the state of the resurrection, the "spiritual body". It is also a reference to Millennium timing like Rev.21:4; Isaiah 61.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

That also is especially Millennium timing, those "living fountains of waters" being about God's River that will flow out from His House from Jerusalem on earth, and that River's location is specifically given in the Ezekiel 47 Chapter, along with the Tree of Life on either side of the River. That River and the Tree of Life is to manifest there starting with Christ's Millennium and that Sanctuary in Jerusalem that Jesus will build. The reason why so many Protestant brethren don't know about this is because most preachers don't really teach much out of the OT Books anymore, but treat all the OT as if it were past history. The reality is there's still a lot of OT prophecy yet to come to pass, and that includes all the way to the time of God's future Eternity after the 1,000 years of Rev.20.

So like I said before about the "great multitude" of Rev.7, the had come out of great tribulation, and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus), having overcome, and stand with Jesus serving Him at His temple in the beloved city that is on earth during His Millennium reign. (Note also Rev.20:9 that "beloved city" is upon the "breadth of the earth".

[Salty]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

Just as God and Christ reign on earth while in the New Jerusalem, His saints reign with Him from the New Jerusalem. God is presently sovereign over the universe from Heaven.

It's not a spiritualization like you're trying to make it. Study Ezekiel 40 forward and you'll see it means Christ's elect literaly ... reign ON the earth. Also see Rev.3:9 where those of the synagogue of Satan will be made to come worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Salty

[Ezra]

1 minute ago, Salty said:

Study Ezekiel 40 forward and you'll see it means Christ's elect literaly ..

Actually I have studied the book of Ezekiel and it is strictly about redeemed and restored Israel (the nation of Israel) on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. Those are indeed "elect" but not the Church. The Abrahamic Covenant is seen as fulfilled in Ezekiel.

[Salty]

8 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Actually I have studied the book of Ezekiel and it is strictly about redeemed and restored Israel (the nation of Israel) on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. Those are indeed "elect" but not the Church. The Abrahamic Covenant is seen as fulfilled in Ezekiel.

The ones in Ezek.44 called the Zadok represent Christ's elect who reign with Him. The name means 'the Just'. It tells us only those will be allowed to approach Christ at His table and serve Him. The Levites are mentioned as a separate group.

Don't let Darby's Dispensationalism ideas influence you that only Israel is manifested on earth while the Church is up in the clouds somewhere still, for those kind of ideas are not Biblical.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Jesus said that above to the Church at Philadelphia, not to non-believing Israel.

According to what you've been told, there's gonna' be a whole lot of space between the feet of Christ's elect there and those of the synagogue of Satan when they worship Christ at His elect's feet. No, the wicked do that at the feet of Christ's elect on earth, as Jesus inherits the throne of David, which is, and always has been, an earthly throne.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Salty

[Marcus O'Reillius]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

There is no image or scripture showimg saints receiving rewards in heaven.....in all accounts Christ comes with his rewards.

False test.

This is like saying there is no image or Scripture saying there is a Trinity.

While the Great Multitude is in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17, all of sudden, a few people say, without any real evidence in Scripture, of the same caliber they demand of their opponents - which pointedly says what they want to push that: Christians live in Jerusalem on earth, during the Millennium as our afterlife.

And unless you embrace Replacement Theology, and substitute the Church for every instance God spoke to the Hebrew nation through the Old Testament Prophets, you can't find a salient and critical verse which says that we are to give an account of ourselves to God on the future earth during the Millennium, and receive one or more of the seven different "crowns" found in the New Testament which can accrue to those who believe in Jesus in this physical plane of existence ~ which is only one we know... now.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

The celestrial signs are not a single seal event....they carry well into the trumpets as warnings

This means that and that means this.

Anyone can say anything on a board like this.

Now what does the Bible say?

• God revealed through Jesus to John that this happens with opening of the sixth Seal.
• Jesus said this happens before the sign of the Son of Man comes in the Olivet Discourse.
• Likewise, after the sun/moon/star sign, Jesus revealed to John that the sky will scroll back.

I take those last two bullet points to be the same thing: the sign of the Son of Man is having the night sky scroll back.
Then Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that the Elect would be gathered up.

To say certain celestial signs which PRECEDE the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) is not a single event, but carry onward into the Trumpet Judgments - is to just make a statement totally devoid of evidence in Scripture and allow, only by the scarcest link by a similarity to wording totally devoid of context, can such charlatans spin a web encompassing an entirely different interpretation which is found by a normal, literal reading.

[OneLight]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

Isaiah 60 & 62 will solve this problem

I am afraid it does not, and cannot.  Remember, there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

21 hours ago, inchrist said:

The wrath of God only begins at the 7th trumpet....hence why we have the bowls of wrath.

This is fallacious on its face; like I said, anyone can say anything on a board like this.

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

This is fallacious on its face; like I said, anyone can say anything on a board like this.

I am curios, when do you believe Gods wrath begins?